>> It isn't an either/or scenario.
>> I person can work to abolish the state and still vote for a
>> Congressional Rep. or Senator who favors Universal Health Care or some
>> other incremental change that will help millions of peoples real lives. (JT)
>>
>
> Maybe you can, but anarchists disagree with this position.
>
> I'm really impressed at how much members of this list cling to the idea
> that voting changes things. This is so out of touch with how most
> Americans see the political system. I think that this has to do with the
> fact that most list members are highly educated and thus highly
> indoctrinated into believing that the political system not only still
> works, but could be used to achieve radical reforms like universal
> health care. This is almost a belief system akin to the one that
> afflicts the 9/11 Turth Movement/ (Chuck)
>
No maybe about it. Most people can vote rather easily. Most easily if you are a white male which constitutes the bulk of those who claim to be anarchists. Not all, but the majority. I like the attempt to link conspiracy theorists with anyone who thinks voting can lead to incremental changes. You're not still stinging from the reference linking dogmatic anarchist positions with dogmatic xtian thinking are you? (JT)
>> It isn't as if voting takes so much time that one just cannot fit it
>> into busy schedule.
>>
>
> Voting is not just something that take 15 minutes to do every two years.
> Ther is all the time we have to waste talking about voting, like on this
> list, which is talking about a fucking presidential election that is 15
> months away. An election THAT WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.
>
> Want to argue with me on that point? I'll just trot out Barack Obama's
> comments yesterday when he was trying to act tough on foreign policy? (Chuck)
>
Tell everyone who has Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. that they didn't get it by voting in candidates who believed in such things but rather they have them because anarchists direct action on those topics got them the goods. Tell Canadians that the don't have Universal Health Care because they voted in politicians who implemented it but rather because of Canadian anarchists who stuck it to the man until he gave in and implemented UHC. Either that or tell Canadians that implementing UHC didn't change anything in their lives. It must be one or the other because voting sure can't change anything. (JT)
>> The idea that not voting is some principled stance is BS. (JT)
>>
>
> I could start referencing all of the anarchist literature that supports
> this principled stance. It goes back 150 years. (Chuck)
>
And...
I can start referencing 2000 years of literature that supports the wacky
idea that a godman was born in a town in a desert that never existed
until after his alleged death and who, it is claimed, performed miracles
and came back from the dead. That doesn't make it any less goofy. I've
read much anarchist theory and in the end it comes up wanting. It has
enticing bits but ultimately fails to provide enough. (JT)
>
>> That doesn't mean voting in every election but refusing to vote in any
>> is childish, not principled. (JT)
>>
>
> Will you even admit the fact that anarchists are different than social
> democrats or liberals or whoever? (Chuck)
>
I'll admit they're different all right. I'll just claim that the idea of a principled stance against ever voting is childish. It is self-centered, more interested in maintaining a pure "me" than accomplishing something. It is a position that one can stake out most readily from a position of privilege. The demographic of anarchists bear this out. (JT)
>> Where do you buy clothes that doesn't support the state and corporate
>> structure you oppose? (JT)
>>
>
> What the fuck does buying clothes have to do with this discussion? (Chuck)
>
You claimed a few reasons anarchists don't vote were: against their self-interests and supports the state apparatus. So does buying clothes and food and paying rent. Do you wear homespun made from cotton grown on land where no rents are collected? If not why is it alright to support the state apparatus and work against your own self interest when purchasing attire but never when voting for a candidate who offers a chance at an incremental improvement in real working peoples lives?
For the most part absolutest stances that offer no direct benefits to any other than an individual are childish. This is actually something I have learned since joining this list. I used to believe otherwise. I used to believe something similar to you as a matter of fact. If I individually choose never to buy product "A" it is nothing but an individual choice. It has zero social and political ramifications. If I want to do it to remain in a sense "pure" than that is my choice but it is not a higher moral calling or decision, just an individual preference. Only collectively do such actions take on any significance. Since voting is a collective act but not voting is an individual act then not voting is nothing other than a personal preference with zero ramifications beyond the person not voting. When engaged in by a large enough number of people it easily becomes an act that simply reinforces the status quo. Short of getting 90% of the population to not only refrain from voting but collectively refuse to recognize the results of an election by 10% of the population the concept of not voting is nothing other than a personal choice to remain "clean". (JT)
>> You're mistaken when you write "Most Americans don't vote. They clearly
>> reject the current political system and see through it."
>> They don't see through anything, they are apathetic because they feel
>> disaffected and powerless. They feel that way because the system
>> encourages them to. If they saw through that they would be more, not
>> less, inclined to vote. (JT)
>>
>
> No, I'm not mistaken. Try looking at the polls. The idea that Americans
> don't vote because they are apathetic is a myth promoted by the
> corporate liberal media.
> They aren't voting because they see the system as a sham. Perhaps if you
> talked to more people you'd hear this.
>
> This widespread disgust with the political system by average Americans
> is one reason that voting anarchists are so absurd. Hey! We have a
> chance to be in the same camp as millions of Americans!
>
> Chuck
I've read the polls concerning voting behaviour.
Have you seen a recent poll that shows over 80% of non-voters believe
voting "is an important way to voice their opinions on issues that
affect their families and communities."?
In a very compressed nutshell non-voters actually believe in the system
overall but feel that the choice in any given election sucks and so
refrain from voting.
Way oversimplified but there's tons of data out there and as long as you
don't just cherry pick a source or poll to fit your preconceived ideas
you'll find the overall picture isn't really as you seem to believe.
Based on your posts. You contradict yourself a lot so maybe you don't
really believe the above either.
While I agree that voting anarchists are absurd their absurdity is
exceeded by non-voting anarchists.
John Thornton