Since I have no need or time to tie up Doug's and Liza's bandwidth with endless circular arguments, I will only respond with this rebuttal, then I will relurk myself.
[From Charles Brown's rebuttal to me] CB: I don't know whether to switch to tragedy and take you seriously or escalate the comedy. :>)/:>( I had more respect for the intelligence of BDSM fans before this thread started. Now I'm thinking, what a bunch of ___. Ah, but, ___ can be fun, and you're more fun than a barrel of monkeys, uh bonobos. [/CB]
OK....so the diverse sexual practices of an entire group of people has now been reduced to basically "a bunch of....." Ahhh, gee, Charles, why not just come out and say it outright that BDSM is full of shit-throwers??
You came into this with the gas can aimed at innocent people; why not be willing to defend yourself when they do the same??
And for the record, I am NOT an practioner of BDSM, but I am a sex radical who simply refuses to deny them their humanity or use them as guniea pigs or human pinatas for your own elitist myopia.
[...] In the course of this thread, the pro-BDSMers find it necessary to insult me or anybody who doesn't unhesitatingly endorse and "approve" of them as ,oh, how shall I say it, "putting their foot in their mouths", mentally unable to grasp the sharp and absolute difference between a BDSM sadist and domestic battering/rapist sadists. [/CB]
[My response] Well, Mr. Brown, in this case the insult is not only deserved, but actually understated. In my view, anyone who reduces the diverse activities of BDSM, which includes everything from female domination to consensual spanking to sensory play short of all out pain, to a "cult", and even implies that such is the equivalent to rape (if not the outright cause of rape itself), deserves nothing less.
^^^^ CB; Given your discussion here, I'm inclined to take an insult from you as a compliment.[/CB]
Take it however you want to, Charles....I stand by my statement. Anyone who attempts to conflate the diversity of consensual sex with rape deserves all the insults they get.
[From CB's response to me] [Me] Contrary to your nice Maquis de Sade fantasy of BDSM zombies living by day getting flogged in dark dungeons by dasterdly men in goth gear; most practicioners of kink actually do live normal lives outside of their sex play.
^^^^ CB: Most ? What do the minority do outside of their sex play ?[/CB]
Gee, i don't know....a minority of gay men cruise for bareback sex on occasion; does that justify homophobia for the rest of the GLBT community?? Or are you saying that the majority should suffer for the sins of the few??? Sounds like a true leftist, indeed.
^^^ [Me] And some even happen to have leftist sensibilities, too. ^^^^^ CB: What proportion have rightist sensibilities ?[/CB]
Oh...so that makes your prejudices justified??
^^^^ [Me] Now, I do not deny that there aren't extreme cases that merit the stereotype, but who the hell are you to pass such a judgement on them who do no harm to others??
^^^ CB: Indeed, who the hell am I for you to care what I say, think or judge ? [/CB]
For the record, Charles, I have as much care for your opinions of me as you do of mine....but I have this thing about defending innocent people who don't deserve to be slammed for no reason.
[CB's response to Jim Straub and ChuckO (truncated for brevity)] [...] As to criticism of BDSM, I think you two ignore the fact that there is a big problem of domestic violence against women in the world, certainly in the US. A big _left_ project is to get men to stop being "sadistic" toward women. So, it might help if you explained in detail how BDSM is actually only superficially similar to or actually not at all like domestic violence against women. For you to ignore this obvious question, and act so surprised that non-BDSM people have some questions about it is kind of esoteric on your parts.
Also, I wonder whether LGBT people and liberationists in general consider BDSM as having the same status as their sexual identities. [/CB]
Of course, since it is your stated position that BDSM is not only similar to but directly related to -- if not the root of -- male sexual violence against women, my guess is that your response to Chuck and Mr. Straub wouldn't differ if they said "yes". And the only "left" project that even attempts to support your general theories comes straight out of the MacKinnon/Dworkin radicalfeminist theology...which has a very questionable record of being truly "left", in my view.
[From CB's response to me] Mr Kennerly [sp??] Gee...for someone who "doesn't give a good goddamn", Mr. Brown, you sure spread a lot of hate and presumptions.
^^^^ CB: Do you mean spread hate of BDSM ? You hate BDSM haters, don't you ? Next thing we know, you'll be spreading hate of BDSM haters. Hate will be spread everywhere, the world will be filled with hate. Oh no ! [/CB]
Ahhh, no, Charles, I don't neccessarily hate BDSM haters...I just hate bigots of all kinds who use leftist lists to spread the worst kinds of slanders, falsehoods, and libels at people who have done nothing to deserve it.
And for the record, I did not change my last name in midstream. I'll just chalk your mispelling up to typing while angry.
[CB responding] [Me] Of course, for an ideologue spreading disinformation about a particular group that he wants to liquidate from his movement, "the burden of proof" for defending their right to exist will always fall upon them....never upon the one making the slanderous charges to begin with.
^^^^ CB: Am I in a movement with BSDMers' ? If not, where do you get this idea ? BSDM isn't a left movement.
Is the notion of "liquidate" out of your sadist persona ? I never used any such term.
Myself, I never questioned BSDMers' right to exist. I exercised my right to ask critical questions about BSDM's social impact in the midst of a big social problem of male violence against women.
Are you trying to stop me from speaking ? If so, I reject your discipline and censorship. You seem to be trying to dominate me. Is that your BDSM persona creeping out.
As to why I didn't give a good goddamn , there had been so many expressions of phony indignation and phony denials that there could be anything remotely similar between the two types of sadism that I was annoyed at the dishonesty. What a bunch of mean "aristocrats" like de Sade.[/CB]
Hold up..."my sadist persona"??? I did say twice that I am a basically straight hetero sex radical, did I??? And there are known examples of practicing BDSM'ers who happen to be political leftists or liberals.
And bringing in de Sade doesn't support your arguments, either.
Stopping you from speaking??? Yeah, right, as if I ever could. Last time I checked, this was Doug Henwood's list, and only he has the power to pull the plug.
Oh...and how in the hell would I be dominating you?? By standing up and calling you out on what I see as plain and simple BS??? Yeah, I'm really a brutal sadist, I am. </sarcasm>
[Me} And if you don't mind, please cite any example of one practioner or "advocate" of BDSM ever saying that such is a "superior" or "more advanced" form of sex than traditional "vanilla" het/gay sex....or where anyone even remotely advances the view that BDSM makes for a more "advanced" or "elite" intellectual. (Well....other than the obvious fact that accepting your own special kink allows you to be more open and accepting and empathetic about the sexuality of others.)
^^^^ CB: So, are you in the parenthesis saying that BDSM is more advanced or elitist , right here , right now ? If so I answer your question by pointing to what you write in your parenthesis.
Anyway, for another example of kinkster sexuality elitism , see post ( about 40 or so above yours on this list) from Brian Dauth under heading "Weird ideas of freedom" with a 2006 article from the Journal of Homosexuality on the subject of bdsm, Mr. Smarty Pants. [/CB]
Heheh....nice try, Mr. Brown, but no cigar for you. I never said, nor do I believe, that BDSM sex is in any way superior or advanced or even "elitist" (indeed, the latter happens to be your word, not mine); I simply said in the parenthesized section that those who learn to accept rather than deny their devotion to more kinky sex tend to be more empathetic and less discriminatory towards other, more conventional forms of sexuality.
Since it is getting a bit late and more than a bit tiring, I will close this discussion with this: If the Left is ever going to escape being anything other than an elitist ghetto movement; it will have to accept that the bulk of the people whom it wants to serve happen to have their own feelings, desires, and fantasies that won't exacly fit into any particular narrow ideology. If the Left can't get a freakin' clue about sexual diversity and consent and mutual respect, then they lose any privilege of lecturing the Right about their own prejudices. What Charles Brown is doing right now is far more elitist and reactionary, in my view, than anything happening in a BDSM dungeon between consenting adults.
With that, I yield the floor.
Anthony