[lbo-talk] Nation, State, and Modernity (was Religious parties)

Yoshie Furuhashi critical.montages at gmail.com
Thu Jul 12 13:46:37 PDT 2007


On 7/11/07, Marvin Gandall <marvgandall at videotron.ca> wrote:
> Yoshie wrote:
>
> > On 7/10/07, Marvin Gandall <marvgandall at videotron.ca> wrote:
> >> At issue is how to view political parties directed by clerics -
> >> Christian,
> >> Jewish, or Muslim - who want to use state power to impose their religious
> >> values and laws on society.
> >
> [...]
>
> > How did modernity as we know it in Europe and Japan come about? By
> > bloody imposition of laws and values, _including religious laws and
> > values...for long periods of time, over centuries that it took
> > them to build modern nations and states, beginning in the 15th century
> > or thereabout.
>
> > When did people in the global South begin to do the same? Around the
> > early 19th century in Latin America, and around the mid-19th century
> > in the rest of the world...
>
> > What has been the chief contribution of Marxism to modernity?...
> > Even when the dictatorship of the party succeeded in building a nation
> > under a state and ushering both into modernity, it usually took a far
> > larger toll than the Islamic Revolution due to the aforementioned
> > speed-up, and when it failed, it resulted in Cambodia under Pol Pot.
> =====================================
> Few would deny that historical change is wrenching and bloody and involves
> state coercion, and that Marxist regimes, despite an ideological commitment
> to the self-activation of the masses, have been as guilty of forced
> development as any other.
>
> But what political conclusions flow from your analysis?
>
> Do you still consider it useful to distinguish between secular left and
> religious parties in terms of their traditional social contituencies, the
> interests they represent, the goals embodied in their programmes, and their
> record in power?

There used to be distinctions between secular left and religious parties, but today distinctions are fast disappearing, it seems to me.

The secular left who used to be communist are no longer in favor of communism, and the secular left who used to be social democratic are no longer in favor of social democracy. On matters economic there is therefore convergence, rather than divergence, between religious and secular left parties. If anything, some religious parties are clearly to the Left of some secular left parties. The sad reality is that, if Iran's power elite succeed in imposing the Chinese Communist Party's economic model upon Iran's working people, as many of them yearn to do, that will mean Iran moving to the Right, not to the Left.

On the question of imperialism, too, some religious parties are to the Left of some secular left parties in the South, and in the North, all major secular left parties are part of the US-led multinational empire.

Most who are secular leftists, especially in the West, are essentially social liberals, as "Andie" says, whether or not they are still sentimentally attached to old names, and on this, the question of rights, there is still divergence between secular left and religious parties, secular left parties more in favor of individual rights and personal freedoms as they are conceived in political liberalism, and religious parties, even moderate ones, much less committed to them.

In the predominantly Islamic world, the two points of convergence and one point of divergence are both rooted in their respective political bases. Religious parties have become better at organizing the constituencies that secular left parties used to represent to a certain extent and still claim to represent though they no longer do so in many cases. Here's an example from Palestine:

Following the armed resistance of the 1970s in Gaza,

led, partly, by various socialist groups, there was no

truly popular left that appealed to a large segment of

the Palestinian popular imagination. Although some

of these groups held onto truly principled stances

opposing Oslo, for example, they remained largely

confined to university campuses, spotted in urban

centers as artists, academics, and middle class -- and

sometimes upper class -- intellectuals.

The bizarre twist is that Hamas, by a practical

definition, is much closer to socialist principles than the

urban "socialist" intellectuals. (Ramzy Baroud, "The

Palestinian Left: A Lost Opportunity,"

<http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/baroud110707.html>).


> Or have these parties, as you seem strongly to suggest, all shared the same
> commitment to "modernity" - that is, to the modern economies, political
> systems, and social values expressed most fully in the advanced capitalist
> countries? With the exception of some of the early Protestant sects,
> theocratic leaders and parties have historically resisted modernizing
> efforts by the liberal and socialist parties based in the cities.

Was Isaac Newton consciously committed to modernity? Oliver Cromwell?

John Milton? Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu? Not at all. They did not even know that they were helping create the foundations of what would become modernity in their respective countries (and the rest of the world in the case of Newton).


> I largely agree with your knowledgeable summary of the political errors of
> the Iranian and Afghan left, although I don't think these were inevitable,
> and believe these regimes could have survived by slowing the pace of reform
> to account for the the social weight of the conservative landed classes.
> With the power of hindsight, this what I, as an Iranian and Afghan leftist,
> would have proposed. But my political home would have remained on the left,
> in opposition to the religious parties, competing for the same popular
> constituencies. Would you say the same? It is no longer clear to me, and
> maybe to others who occupy our small political space.

In the United States, I have no political home. There is no organized left here, though there are individual leftists, some building their little individual cults of personality. Since there is no secular left political vehicle, it is not even possible to compete with religious organizations for the same popular constituencies, though I would try to get it to do so if there were one.

The popularity of 9/11 conspiracy theory, apparently growing numbers of liberals and leftists buying into it, and the rest of liberals and leftists more or less tolerating it, imho, is a sign of profound intellectual confusion or, rather, exhaustion on the Left. -- Yoshie



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