Ravi was hilarious! : )
----- Original Message ----- From: "andie nachgeborenen" <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Nietzsche again
:
: Maybe you missed the discussion on my defense of a
: Marxian theory of retribution.
I did not miss it and I agree with your position.
All the namby
: pambies here thought I was being barbaric.
Hard to see Carrol Cox as a namby-pamby.
However, I don't believe that retribution is based on
: resentment and envy.
:
: But sure this particular discussion of crude communism
: is shades of Nietzsche (as Charles noted off line, the
: correspondences are analogical if they exist; Marx
: having written first, and Nietzsche knowing nothing
: about Marx in general of this unpublished passage in
: particular) -- the passage in question. Marx
: disapproves of envy and leveling down and motivations
: for equality. All through his life and not just here,
: he was quite Nietzschean
Why drag Nietzsche into it?
and anti-egalitarian.
Not in a Nietzschean way. He was democratic and socialist, not a Kaufmannian " perfervid individualist
He
: despises morality, bourgeois morality in particular.
: (Never mind that he was as Victorian as they come in
: his personal life.) He never basis his critique of
: capitalism on inequality, but on repression of
: opportunities for the very Nietzschean ideal of
: self-realization and the very Nietzschean notion of
: artistic creation. Marx just thinks that these
: prospects and opportunities are far more widespread
: that Nietzsche thinks.
:
: Trotsky gets the spirit of Marx right when at the end
: of Literature and Revolution, he talks about making a
: Goethe or a Newton and everyday type, and "beyond
: those heights, new alps arise." Even the alps talk is
: Nietzschean. Granted that is Trotsky, but he's got
: Marx the anti-egalitarian dead on. No leveling down,
: raising up, competition for glory of creation and
: extremes of brilliance, optimism that this can be
: widespread.
:
: In the Critique of the Gotha Program, neither of his
: distribution principles, according to work or
: according to need, is remotely egalitarian; in the
: first case (the work principle), he points that out
: explicitly; with regard to the needs principle he
: wants to "discard the narrow horizons of bourgeois
: right" [justice].
:
: And conversely, Nietzsche has plenty of place for
: anger, outrage, cruelty, and retribution. Just because
: he is not a Nazi doesn't mean he's nicey-wicey, as a
: number of people have pointed out. The idea of der
: Wille zur Macht (the Will to Power), even if
: sublimated into creative activity rather than violence
: and oppression (which would, as I've said, bore a
: Nietzschean aristocracy to death and leave them
: displeased with distaste -- animal predation is for
: the old master class, long defeated), and having for
: Nietzsche's higher men no place for resentment,
: doesn't exactly bring up thoughts of sweetness and
: light.
:
: So, yeah, Marx and Nietzsche are very close in their
: attitudes to egalitarianism. Both despise it and for
: similar reasons. Neither has any room for envy and
: resentment. Both loathe the idea of leveling down.
: Neither has any use for morality as a basis for
: motivation 00 morality understood as bourgeois
: morality for Marx or Christian morality for Nietzsche,
: quite similar ideas. Both are stuck on perfectionist
: ideals of self-realization with artistic creation as
: the central model of desirable human activity.
:
: I hadn't worked this out before, despite having taught
: classes long ago on Marx and Nietzsche, so thanks for
: inspiring me to do so, James.
:
: --- james daly <james.irldaly at ntlworld.com> wrote:
:
: > Doug wrote:
: >
: > Marx has an attack on "crude communism in the Paris
: > Manuscripts, "the
: > consummation of this envy [shades of Nietzsche] and
: > of this leveling down
: > proceeding from the preconceived minimum." EPR, ME
: > Reader at 83 (Tucker, 2d
: > ed.)
: >
: > A very important passage, but not a shade of
: > Nietzsche. Nietzsche hated
: > ressentiment only because his inferiors would have
: > imposed on him idealistic
: > democratic and socialist behaviour -- like that of
: > "gentle Jesus meek and
: > mild", or the Golden Rule. In fact Marx (like Che
: > Guevara -- "an army that
: > does not hate will not win") had a place for
: > vengeance and hatred. He wrote
: > in 1850:
: >
: > Above all, during and immediately after the struggle
: > the workers, as far as
: > it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois
: > attempts at pacification and
: > force the democrats to carry out their terroristic
: > phrases. They must work
: > to ensure that the immediate revolutionary
: > excitement is not suddenly
: > suppressed after the victory. On the contrary, it
: > must be sustained as long
: > as possible. Far from opposing the so-called
: > excesses - instances of popular
: > vengeance against hated individuals or against
: > public buildings with which
: > hateful memories are associated - the workers' party
: > must not only tolerate
: > these actions but must even give them direction.
: >
: > Of course this was during a period of misery and
: > famine, and these were not
: > computer jockeys.
: >
: > The difference between Marx and Nietzsche in this
: > regard is that between
: > human righteous indignation and animal predation.
: > Nietzsche wrote:
: >
: > And we are the first to admit that anyone who knew
: > these "good" ones only as
: > enemies would find them evil enemies indeed. For
: > these same men who, amongst
: > themselves, are so strictly constrained by custom,
: > worship, ritual,
: > gratitude, and by mutual surveillance and jealousy,
: > who are so resourceful
: > in consideration, tenderness, loyalty, pride and
: > friendship, when once they
: > step outside their circle become little better than
: > uncaged beasts of prey.
: > Once abroad in the wilderness, they revel in the
: > freedom from social
: > constraint and compensate for their long confinement
: > in the quietude of
: > their own community. They revert to the innocence of
: > wild animals: we can
: > imagine them returning from an orgy of murder,
: > arson, rape, and torture,
: > jubilant and at peace with themselves as though they
: > had committed a
: > fraternity prank...
: >
: > Can anyone tell me what we can learn from this? Or
: > why there is, as one
: > lister put it "nothing objectionable" in it?
: >
: > J. D.
: >
: >
: > ___________________________________
: >
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: >
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