[lbo-talk] Liberal Intellectuals and the Coordinator Class

John Thornton jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net
Wed Jul 18 11:22:34 PDT 2007


BklynMagus wrote:
> But is it ideal that everyone have the same? Once the needs
> that a community has decided are essential and must be
> met have been met (acknowledging that expenditures may vary
> among individuals in accomplishing this), why shouldn't
> those who feel the need for more than the essentials be
> allowed to try and satisfy those needs so long as they do not
> disrupt or harm the delivery process involved in providing
> for the essential needs of all?
>
Keep in mind my reply was directly with regards to Parecon. There is no reason that individuals would only be limited to having their needs filled. People would be able to purchase/acquire things beyond the essentials but only in equal proportion to each other. In a manner of speaking their 'disposable' incomes would be identical and one could not individually increase theirs by working more hours. Working more hours would only insignificantly increase everyones disposable income. In todays monetary terms imagine that after food, rent, utilities, and all necessities (these would vary from person to person) had been provided each person had US $15,000 given to them. Now imagine that this is the same for everyone. No amount of working overtime will change it. If you want to furnish your living space with custom accoutrement's using that money, save most of it for a worldwide two year vacation, but fancy clothes or first-rate S/M gear is completely irrelevant. Everyone gets the same regardless of work effort. [JT]


>
>> Rather than worry about freeloaders why not be far more concerned with the pathological behaviour of those who can
>> only feel motivated, fulfilled, etc. by having a higher level of remuneration relative to others. [JT]
>>


>> Why is that pathologiocal? I will admit up front to an
>> aversion to pathologizing desires (comes from living queer), but
>> I think that there will probably be people who want to have
>> more than others or whose desires are more intricate and require
>> greater resources to be fulfilled. If the essential needs of all
>> have been met, why shouldn't people be free to pursue the
>> satisfaction of their other desires (again, so long as no injury
>> is done to the process of satisfying essential desires)? [Brian]
>>
It is pathological to feel the need to have more relative to others in order to feel fulfilled, motivated, satisfied, etc. Wanting to fulfill desires beyond necessities is quite healthy. Wanting everyone else to be capable of doing so is also healthy. Insisting on having greater income and therefore greater opportunities relative to others is pathological. If all needs are met is it fair for me to say since I want a a new Ferrari every year and you only want to attend a film festival I should get 35 times more income than you so we can both be satisfied? Individual desires don't really enter into the equation. You fill your desires with the income you have.


> But isn't the priority a) creating equal access and availability
> to what society has determined is essential; and b) preventing
> behaviors that will interfere with and violate this access?
>
> Maybe someone wants to sail around the world while all I want is a
> subscription to the New York Film Festival. My desire is much
> more easily met, and so long as the person does no harm to essential
> service provision, then she can knock herself out getting a boat
> and supplies so she can go around the globe.
>
> Brian
Again keeping in mind Parecon, which is what I was responding to directly, both persons can do these things. If person A wishes to sail around the world they can save their income until they can afford to do so. You meanwhile will be able to attend the NY Film Festival annually in all probability. A society cannot reward expensive tastes so your ability to engage in leisure time activities cannot be allocated according to desires. Access to such activities should be kept equal. Hahnel/Albert and I agree on this but where we part company is they believe both in rewarding the pathological behaviour described above as well as fearing people will not "do enough constructive work" without being coerced. The only way I see to address both these problems, within the framework set by Parecon, is to set income levels equally regardless of work. This guarantees no one will be coerced into working undesirable jobs better than any arrangement I have seen to date. Hahnel/Albert are, quite tellingly in my opinion, more worried about free riders than coercive work conditions. They acknowledge the problem of individual pathological desires to increase ones income disproportionately to others but feel societal pressures alone will prevent this. Why social pressure will prevent the pathological desires of one social subset but economic coercion is needed to curb the similar pathology of another social subset is left unexplained. It is interesting that curbing lazy desires (Is it uncharitable to read this as poor/minorities?) calls for economic coercion but curbing the accumulating/controlling desires (WASP'S?) needs only social pressure. This is simple bourgeois thinking; the hardworking are good people who will respond to gentle social pressure but the lazy laborers need a stick to motivate them. Complete horseshit.

I will also repeat that the only other person on this list who posted that they felt coercion was not necessary in any manner for society to get its required work accomplished was Bill and that was both interesting and surprising. The idea of equal income without regards to work effort seems to bother a great many here.

John Thornton



More information about the lbo-talk mailing list