> On 3/6/07, andie nachgeborenen <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Force of the brute kind is
> > relegated to the discussion of "primitive
> > accumulation" and is analytically distinct from the
> > expropriation that occurs in ordinary wage labor. It
> > may be necessary for the creation of capitalist
> > productive relations, but it is not part of them.
>
> Force is also necessary for the maintenance of capitalist productive
> relations on the global scale, so no nation will think of transition
> to socialism or even a social state that seeks to benefit the nation
> more and foreign capital less under the same capitalism (the history
> of Iran is a very good example of this fact -- neither Mossadegh nor
> Khomeini sought to end capitalism, but the former's government was
> overthrown by the Anglo-American coup, and Iran under the latter's
> government was invaded by Iraq, which was armed by just about all
> major powers of the world).
>
> If workers of the West ever think of doing away with the source of
> their economic insecurity, they will be no doubt subject to the same
> force. It's just that here in the relatively richer West most workers
> never think of that.
> --
> Yoshie
Um, I think you are missing Andy's point which is pretty well established and accepted: It is not really his either, it is best summed by Ellen Woods. That is not to say that force does not exist but rather that is the providence of the state and its juridical institutions. Force is not "directly" required for the production of surplus value. Private property is of course backed by force but it is the state not the owner of capital which enforces the rule of private property. So yes capitalism relies in the first and last instance on force as do all social orders but capitalism does not rely on direct force for the (re)production of surplus value. That us capitalisms great political secret and ultimate mystification.
We can all have our cake and eat it too, we just have to allow for a layered cake instead of a slice of empiricist pie.
Travis Fast