You know, I think the reason I am rolling my eyes at this discussion is that you are saying "Muslims" instead of "Islamists." The Muslims I know behave indistinguishably from everybody else, except that they may observe Ramadan and/or on occasion go to a mosque (like once a year) and a few of them don't drink for religious reasons. Several are quite promiscuous.
But then I live in the Land of Muslim Enlightenment, the Former Soviet Union. We have Islam-themed vodka -- the label is green! :)
--- Ansar al-Zindiqi <infidelinfinity at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
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> YF: Let's be clear about that: the Communists, like
> much of the Iranian
> left, were uncritically supportive of Khomeini.
> Lacking political
> independence, they were not strong enough to lead
> anything. The fate
> of the Left after the Iranian Revolution was very
> much a reflection of
> their relative strength not only among the society
> as a whole, but
> among the Khomeinists. It was not inevitably so,
> even then: the main
> anti-left purges took place after the hostage crisis
> and then the
> invasion by Iraq, which enabled the conservative
> bourgeoisie to
> marginalise and neutralise the komitehs (populated
> by Islamists as
> well as socialists, you know).
>
> A. al-Z: The fate of the Left after the Islamic
> takeover of Iran was due to outright stupidity. If
> you want to be chummy with Muslims like this then go
> right ahead.you don;t have totell me particulars of
> how you think things happened.
>
> YF: The history that you refer to doesn't
> immediately compel a sectarian
> attitude of refusing to work with Islamists. That
> is secular
> catechism rather than revolutionary realpolitik.
>
> A. al-Z: The revolutionary realpolitik was swinging
> in circles at the end of a rope. How the hell the
> Left in Iran thought they could cooperate with the
> mullahocracy and remain safe is beyond me. The
> secular catechism you refer to is like Jews
> continuing to cooperate with Nazis after the
> Holocaust.
>
> YF: It does mean that one has to retain one's
> political independence and a crucial focus on class
> mobilisation.
>
> A. al-Z: By being so focused on "class mobilisation"
> leftists who cooperate with Muslims don't see the
> knife beng inserted into their backs. The poltical
> independece you refer to doesn't even exist when
> making alliances with such people.
>
> YF: It does mean that one doesn't trust
> petit-bourgeois outfits like the Muslim Brothers.
>
> A. al-Z: But go ahead and think that making
> alliances with them will result in any kind of
> progress while the Left gets decimated? Wakey wakey.
>
>
> YF: But if Mubarak is to be overthrown, the left
> isn't strong enough to do it alone; the Islamists
> are strategically weak and too easily coopted or
> destroyed; the Nasserists are in disarray. Only
> through unity, based on the recent working class
> revolts, can it happen.
>
> A. al-Z: And what "working class" revolts are you
> talking about? I haven't noticed anything like that
> in Egypt lately. Your idea of unity is like making
> an alliance with vampires to save the local blood
> bank.
>
> YF: And if the Islamists let the revolt down, the
> left should not be hesitant to criticise and
> organise independently.
>
> A. al-Z: The Muslims can cause all the revulsion
> they want and that'll deep six any genuine effort at
> emanicipating the working class. The ulema doesn't
> give a rat's ass about such things. The Left
> shouldn't have been hesitant to notice that Muslims
> always intend to take over all societies in which
> they are a minority and to destroy all opposition.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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