[lbo-talk] Left wing loathing for the working class

John Thornton jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net
Sun Mar 25 20:32:06 PDT 2007


James Heartfield wrote:
> Thornton says: "I think you inflate the austerity ideology of many leftists
> in the US." even adding that "They are a very small, rather meaningless
> subset." But Thornton then goes by his tut-tutting at what he imagines to be
> the consumerism of the US left (even suggesting that my outlook is popular
> in the US, which would be gratifying if it were true) to show that he at
> least is a part of that 'rather meaningless subset'.
>

I am most definitely not tut-tutting the consumerism of the left or right. I am objecting to the capitalist imperative to consume. I don't think that such decisions are choices in any meaningful way so how could I possibly lament anyone's decision to consume? You prefer to imagine those who disagree with your idea of an endlessly rising tide eventually lifting all boats to some imagined level of prosperity as tut tutting the choice to consume because that is an easily won argument.


> Finally:
>
> "I suspect under socialist planning the term living standards
> would have a different meaning than it currently does under capitalism,
> a concept James seems to have a hard time grasping. He simply projects
> todays capitalist driven consumption ideology into the future imagining
> it as some sort of natural human desire. Something it most assuredly is
> not."
>
> But of course the person who first showed that living standards are socially
> relative was Marx, in his celebrated passages in the Grundrisse, which I
> have from time to time, reproduced here.
>

You can know them, reproduce them and even claim to believe them but your words suggest you have not internalized this belief.


> And of course, none of us can know what attitude people will have towards
> consumption in the future, and I for one follow Marx's advice to avoid
> writing recipes for the socialist cook books of the future.
>
> My thoughts are concentrated on the capitalist present, where, as Doug has
> shown (rather more than I believe) that the US working class's living
> standards have been savagely curtailed. In those circumstances, I prefer not
> to join those who make it their business to bemoan the excessive consumerism
> of the working class.
Avoiding recipes is not stumbling in the dark hopefully moving forward. Every idea put forth is not a direct prescription for the future. I have not claimed to know what peoples choices will be, only what they might be and what I hope they will be. If you prefer not to imagine what future goal you want to work towards in a slavish adherence of "avoiding recipes for the socialist cookbooks of the future" that is your choice but imagining all who work towards a rather wide ranging spectrum of desired outcomes are attempting to write such a cookbook is pure nonsense. You have some idea concerning the future yourself. You imagine it as being just like the present only more high-tech you just aren't honest with even yourself apparently about this recipe you have written and are attempting to follow. You have an annoying tenancy to interject easily dismissed ideas into other people writings and then proceed to demolish them which is a shame because you are an engaging and talented writer and such tactics really should be beneath you.

John Thornton



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