Doss wrote:
"See, you might have a problem here. Russians do not feel oppressed by the federal government. They feel oppressed by the stuff they actually encounter in their lives, which is corrupt police, courts, and regional governments and crime (the latter often linked to the former). A point I have made again and again, but which has apparently not sunk in, is that Russians, especially in the provinces, suffer from the WEAKNESS of the federal center, not its overweaning strength."
However one characterizes: Putin strong man or not (I am not sure that is really a very useful analytical term), Chris seems to be arguing that it is Putin's strength which has *improved the freedom* (positive and negative) of most Russians sans perhaps the oligarchs, corrupt regional elites and dirty cops. You shifted the debate to does consent legitimate oppression which implies among other things that Putin is oppressive for most Russians. I am not in a position to either affirm or reject Doss' claims I simply do not have enough information.
On the question of whether peoples consent/acquiescence to oppression legitimates it? My answer is no. But if most social orders are characterized by a degree of oppression and /consent I am not sure how useful of question this is outside of an abstract (as in general) setting. In which case the thread needs an new name. I have taken that liberty. Should I construe any response from you as consent?
____________________________________ Travis W Fast
>
> No, Chris admitted, maybe in a side post to me, that
> Putin was a classic Russian strongman and that was
> what was necessary nowadays. So maybe the issue is
> whether that Russians are _unnecessarily_ oppressed,
> but Chris has stipulated by implication that they are
> oppressed, if maybe less than under Yeltsin and in any
> event happily. Anyway, when Christ raises the issue,
> and it is a hard one, that the Russians (or anyone)
> consents to what from a socialist pov looks like
> oppression, the happy slaves problem arises. Does
> consent legitimate all things?
>
> --- tfast <tfast at yorku.ca> wrote:
>
> > >Timberlake writes
> > > So, you come down on the "revealed consent" side
> > of
> > > what my old teacher Don Herzog calls the problem
> > of
> > > happy slaves. If the oppressed are cool with their
> > > subordination, all is OK, God's in his heaven,
> > all's
> > > right with the world. Tolstoi deals with this
> > issue in
> > > Resurrection, in which the idealistic young
> > landowner
> > > tries to give his estate to a hostile and
> > reluctant
> > > peasantry who just want to go on serving a strong,
> > > harsh master like it always did before.
> >
> > But! Chris seemed to be arguing that Russians were
> > *not* oppressed by the
> > state. He did not write that they were happy in
> > their subjugation, rather
> > he wrote that they were not subjugated. Chris'
> > claim is not that Putin is
> > perfect but that compared to what existed pre putin
> > Russians are actually
> > more free. You have shifted the terms of the
> > dispute from the degree of
> > oppression to whether or not Russians accept their
> > oppression.
> >
> > Travis
> >
> >
> > > --- Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh yeah, one other point I meant to make:
> > > > --- James Heartfield
> > <Heartfield at blueyonder.co.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "As socialists we are not supposed to like a
> > > > > politically authoritarian,
> > > > > kleptocratic, wildly inegalitarian capitalist
> > > > system
> > > > > that substitutes
> > > > > arbitrary force force for reliable rule of law
> > and
> > > > > accords working people
> > > > > some goodies but no power."
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, ok, but let's not the wish be father to
> > the
> > > > > thought. If this
> > > > > dictatorial government is growing the economy
> > it
> > > > > seems silly to criticise it
> > > > > for not doing so when what you actually want
> > to do
> > > > > is criticise it for
> > > > > oppressing the people.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > See, you might have a problem here. Russians do
> > not
> > > > feel oppressed by the federal government. They
> > feel
> > > > oppressed by the stuff they actually encounter
> > in
> > > > their lives, which is corrupt police, courts,
> > and
> > > > regional governments and crime (the latter often
> > > > linked to the former). A point I have made again
> > and
> > > > again, but which has apparently not sunk in, is
> > that
> > > > Russians, especially in the provinces, suffer
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > WEAKNESS of the federal center, not its
> > overweaning
> > > > strength. Accordingly, they favor its being
> > > > strengthened and the regional powers being
> > weakened,
> > > > which is why most people supported the abolition
> > of
> > > > direct elections of governors. Why? BECAUSE
> > THERE
> > > > WERE
> > > > NO ACTUAL ELECTIONS OF GOVERNORS. The President
> > of
> > > > Tatarstan was "reelected" with something like
> > 98% of
> > > > the vote. Kalmykia is much the same.
> > > >
> > > > Lyubo, bratsy, lyubo, lyubo, bratsy, zhit!
> > > >
> > > > ËÞÁÎ, ÁÐÀÒÖÛ, ËÞÁÎ, ËÞÁÎ, ÁÐÀÒÖÛ, ÆÈÒÜ!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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