[lbo-talk] Mirror neurons

[John Thornton]

Jerry Monaco wrote:
> On 9/1/07, Miles Jackson <cqmv at pdx.edu> wrote:
>   
>> Empathy is the ability to understand what another entity is thinking
>> and feeling.  I've never come across a nonhuman animal that
>> demonstrates this ability (and frankly, many humans don't demonstrate
>> it either!).  In fact, I'm not sure what would count as empathy in an
>> organism that I can't talk to.  How could we determine what a chicken
>> or a dog thinks about what one of its peers is thinking and feeling?
>>
>> Miles
>>     
>
>
> Miles, you are so sure of this?
>
> Strangely, "the ability to understand what another entity is thinking
> and feeling" is a good description of  "theory of mind" theory.
> Historically theory of mind theory was first articulated as a way to
> describe the abilities of chimpanzees.
>
>
> I am unfamiliar with the experiments with birds described by Carrol.
> But similar experiments have been performed with chimps in the
> following way.  Chimp A is in a cage and can see a human outside of a
> cage hide a prized piece of food beneath a rock.  Chimp B is locked
> away out of sight of Chimp A and human and the hiding place.  Chimp B
> is let loose in the area of the hiding place.  Chimp A from the cage,
> through gesture (pointing and jumping mostly) and howling, directs
> Chimp B to the correct hiding place.  After the piece of food is found
> Chimp B will usually share the food with Chimp B who is still in the
> cage.  But the experiement has also been done with chimps that prefer
> different types of food from each other and the results are the same.
> Sometimes the chimp in the cage does not even like the food that has
> been hidden but is "aware" that chimp outside the cage likes the food.
>  Sometimes the experiment has been done with a "favorite" object, like
> a teddy bear, of a younger chimp. So in such a case Chimp A, directing
> younger Chimp B' to find B's favorite object, will derive no benefit
> from Chimp B's success.  Many variations of this experiment has been
> performed over and over again with numbers of chimps, and at varying
> levels of complexity.
>
> I am not sure what this says about what we call "empathy," but it
> certainly exhibits what we might call a notion of an "other's" mind.
>
> Jerry

A notion of "other's mind" is much more common in animals than many 
people seem to think.
I recently observed two sparrows playing "catch" with a feather.
One would fly up about 15-18 ft. in the air and drop a white feather. 
After it wafted downward for a bit another sparrow would intercept it, 
fly it to roughly the same spot and drop it as well. They repeated this 
game for several minutes. Each bird had to have some concept of what the 
other bird expected, some notion of the other's mind.
Animals work in cooperation in experiments all the time. Recent studies 
have shown animals spend much more time cooperating than competing. 
Hardly shocking news. It there was no evolutionary continuity in 
cooperative behaviour that would be shocking news.
I've been here long enough to know nothing anyone could possibly write 
here will change Miles mind.
When Miles claims "I've never come across a nonhuman animal that 
demonstrates this ability (the ability to understand what another entity 
is thinking and feeling)" he is absolutely correct. He has never 
knowingly observed this behaviour. Not because animals don't do it, but 
because Miles doesn't see it. I'm sure Miles can explain how people most 
often see and experience what they expect to see and experience.
It wasn't until I began training therapy animals that I changed my mind 
about animal behaviours.
Ethics, not empathy (nor even morals) are what separate humans from 
non-humans.

John Thornton