[lbo-talk] Fwd: Rick Warren should be in prison

Robert Wrubel bobwrubel at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 21 18:11:59 PDT 2007


"If you wish to criticize my position then criticize my position not a straw man."

Isnt your reference to Leni Reifenstahl a straw man too? Your argument makes no sense. Does art from 2000 years ago have no value either? Are you sure we are so morally advanced over tribal societies? Are we not simply more sophisticated about disguising our aggressive behavior?

I notice that we are just as bloody in war as any of Homer's heroes (more so, in fact, because more de-personalized.) Are our "humanitarian" justifications for war more civilized than Homer's "honor"?

BobW

--- John Thornton <jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


> Chris Doss wrote:
> > --- Carl Remick <carlremick at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Overall I agree with you and find the Bible
> >> generally a mismash of
> >> sacralized tribal lore more likely to mislead
> than
> >> enlighten. Still,
> >> I find some scriptural passages beautiful and
> >> insightful, e.g.:
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I think Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs are two
> of
> > the most beautiful things ever written. What's
> wrong
> > with tribal lore anyway? That's what the Iliad and
> > Gilgamesh are.
>
> No one said there was anything wrong with tribal
> lore and I made the
> exact same point about the Iliad you are making
> here.
> If you wish to criticize my position then criticize
> my position not a
> straw man.
> Are these gospels so mystical people lose the
> ability to read and reason
> when they see them criticized?
>
> I'd love to have someone here actually debate the
> merits of the idea
> that tribal lore from 2000+ years ago should be used
> to offer us moral
> guidance today.
> The idea that a secular multi-cultural society
> should need to seek
> guidance from intolerant tribal folk lore from the
> late bronze age and
> early iron age is genuinely scary.
> The idea that making this observation apparently
> requires many to
> protest that there are occasional lyrical passages
> amid the intolerance
> and bloodshed is also scary.
> Is there such a paucity of material available that
> is relevant to
> helping a modern culture deal with personal and
> civil issues that we
> simply must include sectarian squabbles from ancient
> history to help us
> deal with them?
>
> Leni Reifenstahl made some truly memorable art but
> does one feel
> compelled to point this out _every_ time the
> atrocities of the Nazi's
> are discussed and does this beauty created by
> Reifenstahl have any
> relevance if one is discussing why Fascism offers us
> nothing today in
> the way of guidance?
> Feel free to condemn Italian Fascism in my presence.
> I won't feel
> compelled to point out how Italian Futurism has been
> a profound
> influence on my art work and how breathtaking much
> of it is.
>
> John Thornton
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