Charles Brown <charlesb at cncl.ci.detroit.mi.us> wrote:
>>> Chris Doss
Yeah, a lot of discourse gives the impression that the people doing the discoursing think the ruling classes are composed exclusively of diabolical egomaniacal monsters imposing their will on the exclusively angelic and right-thinking other layers of society.
^^^^^^^^^
Not exclusively. The ideas of the ruling class can "rule" through unconscious structures, and economic, not extra-economic, coercion; and not through secret or diabolical conspiracies of the ruling class. Although, what about the Straussians and Neo-Cons ?
The other point is that the "capitalist class" is not a single entity, and individual capitalists, or capitalist nations, don't always have the same interests, follow the same policies, or think alike. Inflation and currency devaluation terrifies some and works for others, e.g.
BW
Both of you are reading into Marx and Engels' observation things not there. Marx is the originator of the idea that capitalism uses economic structures, not extra-economic coercion, in contrast with feudalism, which used more extra-economic, brute force. The wage-labor/capital relation he discovered and expounded on is the original example of economic(not extra-economic forceful) coercion. By depriving wage-laborers of their land and tools in the primitive accumulation, capitalism established a structural, and non-conspiratorially coercive rule. Nor does Marx term this economic structure diabolical. He is famous for not moralizing. Marx also originated the idea that capitalism is a system,not a policy, meaning that it is _not_ a choice on the part of individual capitalists. He argues that individual ( or groups of) capitalist(s) are bound and coerced to follow the system as much as the working class. Grow or be taken over, is the rule for capitalist enterprises. ( See today's news of Kerkorian starting a takeover of Ford)
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080429/OPINION03/804290379/1148
There is something of a paradox in that as time has gone by, succeeding generations of capitalists have become more and more fully conscious of the structures of their own system ( including learning from Marx and Marxists' description and analysis of the system ) So that today, the leaders and intellectuals of the capitalist class are as conscious of its structures as Marxists are. They know well that they must compete for the consciousness of the masses of workers. This is an example of the paradox of the object of scientific study (in this case of Marxists) being impacted by the study of it by the scientist. It becomes obvious that the capitalists must prevent the working class from being convinced of Marxist theory and propaganda. So, they do things like using "extra-economic" coercion - force - against communists and Marxists, including socialist countries like the Soviet Union, et al. This is not a secret conspiracy, but very open and obvious. I guess the Straussian Neo-cons are something of a contrary example; they seem to be in a kind of conspiracy according to all Chuck's research. Capitalists propaganda and winning consent of the ruled does employ a lot of lying and demagogy. In that regard, we already know a lot of the ways that the "consent" of the ruled to be ruled is obtained, i.e. through all kinds of lies , half-truths and demagogy; but also by divide and rule, and economic coercion (you lose your job or income if you are against the system).
My original point was that having 10 of thousands of times more money and domination of the mass and educational media is why the lies and brainwashing work, not because the capitalists' intellectuals spend more time thinking than the working class' intellectuals do.
Charles
--- Angelus Novus wrote:
>
>
> Chris Doss:
>
> > I'm not sure that the statement that the ruling
> ideas
> > of any age are the ideas of its ruling classes
> would
>
> > really stand up to scrutiny, except as a
> tautology.
-clip-
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