War is ONLY permitted in self defense in exigent circumstances if the UN can't get there first, and only until the UN does get there. That's what they were supposed to do.
If you believe in unilateral humanitarian intervention like NATO in Serbia/Kosovo, then use absolutely minimal force. That is what just war theory tells you to do Take out the missile launchers and stop. Send in troops with orders not to fire unless fired upon and convene and emergency Security Council meeting.
In the real world, Ossetia is none of the Russian's business. If a breakaway Mexican state starts firing on, say Monterrey (not CA) with rocket launchers, what the US is supposed to do is deplore this, call in the UN. (Pay our dues too.)
Anti-interventionism is sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander. This is not a hard principle. US out of everywhere, Russia too. This would be true even if Putin were acting out the highest moral intentions. Given Russian history and policy in the region and towards its neighbors, it's impossible to believe that it was.
--- On Sun, 8/17/08, Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Sad Leninism.
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 7:12 PM
> Andie, they were firing on a city with missile launchers.
> How do you stop them?
>
> --- On Sun, 8/17/08, andie nachgeborenen
> <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > From: andie nachgeborenen
> <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Sad Leninism.
> > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 7:09 PM
> > Well, I guess I thought a bunch of things had already
> put
> > paid to the neocon PNAC dream of unchallengeable US
> > hegemony, like the Iraq war, successful N. Korean and
> (so
> > far) Iranian defiance of the US on nuclear issues the
> > collapse of the dollar, and US economic crisis and the
> rise
> > of China as a coming economic superpower. If the
> Russians
> > had to contribute to the point it was really
> unnecessary to
> > add emphasis by invading Ossetia and killing thousands
> of
> > people.
> >
> >
> > I guess I'm a tender-hearted liberal and not
> > tough-minded enough, but war really does bother me a
> lot
> > even when it's justified, and this war was
> manifestly
> > neither justified nor carried out in a just manner.
> > International Law does not provide for war to make a
> point,
> > but only in self defense; probably it's childish
> of my
> > to even point this out. In any event the point had
> already
> > been made. Putin was just taking advantage of US
> weakness to
> > commit his own lawless acts.
> >
> > The lawless acts was the aggressive war. I take no
> position
> > on whether S. Ossetia ought or ought not to be part of
> > Georgia or Russia or Ossetia or Tennessee for that
> matter.
> > The way that sort of thing is settled in a civilized
> world
> > in an alternate universe is that you hold a fair
> referendum
> > under UN auspices. If after a fair vote the S.
> Ossetians
> > wanted to leave Georgia and the Georgians wouldn't
> let
> > them under force, then it's time for lots of
> > negotiations, maybe ultimately a careful and
> discriminate
> > UN-sponsored military force to get the Georgians to
> go.
> >
> > I'm tired.
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Jim Farmelant
> > <farmelantj at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Jim Farmelant <farmelantj at juno.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Sad Leninism.
> > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > Cc: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 11:21 AM
> > > On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:59:01 -0700 "boddi
> > satva"
> > > <lbo.boddi at gmail.com>
> > > writes:
> > > > Lenin is dead, folks.
> > > >
> > > > The old world of black hats and white hats
> is
> > gone.
> > >
> > > Who in the hell here is talking that way? I
> think
> > that
> > > what most people here believe is that Putin had
> > > delivered Uncle Sam a much needed bodyblow.
> > > I suspect that few people here have illususions
> that
> > > Putin somehow represents a resurrection of the
> > > old dreams concerning Soviet socialism or
> anything
> > > of that sort. Most people here, I don't
> think
> > > would approve of Putin's actions in Chechnya
> for
> > > instance. What he has done is make clear that
> > > the US dream of a unipolar world, in which
> > > the US is free to invade countries and overthrow
> > > the governments of other sovereign countries
> > > whenever it sees fit, using any pretext no matter
> > > how flimsy, is now coming to an end. I think
> > > most people here see this as a good thing.
> > > The resurgence of Russia combined with the
> > > rise of China as a major economic power and
> > > the development of a loose alliance between
> > > those two countries plus other smaller countries
> > > like Iran, Cuba, Venezuela etc. means that
> > > Uncle Sam now to has to be much more
> > > circumspect in the way it pursues its
> > > interests in the world. The recent changes
> > > in tone of the Bush Administration concerning
> > > Iran for instance is indicative then even they
> > > realize that the world has changed, no matter
> > > how much they may dislike it.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If you want to believe that the U.S.,
> Western
> > Europe
> > > and Barack
> > > > Obama
> > > > are the "Great Satan" and that
> Vladimir
> > > Putin will save the world,
> > > > you
> > > > have completely faded into irrelevance.
> > > > ___________________________________
> > > >
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
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