>In fact immiseration may very well be a path to greater barbarism,
>rather than greater enlightenment. Certainly the evidence from some of
>the most 'immiserated' parts of the world strongly suggests this. I'm
>sure I don't need to give examples. However, let's just note in passing
>that this immiseration argument, which is rightly despised, is often
>deliberately conflated with another quite different argument concerning
>the sustainability of capitalist society. (The very prominent list
>member who does this most often for rhetorical effect knows who he is.)
>To point out that capitalism may be leading towards horrific catastrophe
>is not an argument for hastening on that catastrophe. In fact it is the
>opposite. By opening the imagination to the horrors that may be still to
>come, if not immediately, is not to wish for them but rather to
>forestall them by suggesting that a different way of living may be
>necessary for the survival and flourishing of the species and its
>habitat.
>Tahir
I recall that, back in 1998 when this list was born, there were whoops of joy and happiness that people might be tossing themselves out of windows when the economy appeared to be taking a dive. Ooooooo. Stock brokers flattened on the pavement. Wheeeeee. Dude that called me a trollope and ran the Crisis List, IIRC, seemed to be a big advocate of this position.
I haven't been paying enough attention to this particular debate, so who has been taking the position you describe -- the sustainability argument?
On that note, maybe the issue is more about what Nordhaus and Shellenberger address in a book I heard about a couple of months ago. I encouraged Doug to have the authors of _Break Through: The Death of Environmentalism and the Politics of Possibility_ on his show. Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger, I wrote, "sound like they should be on your show, Doug. anyone pay attention to them? Nordhaus was just on Morning Edition and spoke about the negativism and fear generated by current environmental politics and also argued that we aren't going to deprive ourselves to a solution. I don't know how much they go into it in the book, but the angle on a politics of possibility, rather than negative imagery, sounded intriguing. Their lit review section might be worth the trip to the library at any rate."
http://cleandraws.com Wear Clean Draws ('coz there's 5 million ways to kill a CEO)