>>> andie nachgeborenen
The failure to understand the point that value has no
meaning outside a generalized commodity economy based
on market exchange led the Soviets to some disastrous
early economic experiments based on attempting to plan
on the basis of value.
^^^ CB: Are you sure about this ? What about the famous quotes from the Critique of the Gotha Programme on the transitional stage between capitalism and socialism in which the principle is still to each according to work ( labor)? If people are paid based on labor time doesn't that imply that there remains a transitional concept of value which still retains some of the aspects of value as under the full commodity system ? Wouldn't the Soviet Union appropriately have "transitional" commodities and "transitional" money and " transitional" value measured by labor time ?
^^^
Something like it underlies the silly idea to remunerate labor in a nonmarket context terms or chits for labor time -- Marx actually takes this silly notion on somewhere, I used to know, but it doesn't come to mind, Shane? anyone? -- it's not a new idea. And it won't go away.
Although not officially accepting value theory, Parecon offers a version of this form of compensation which betrays the misunderstanding of the fact, expressed in Marx's value theory, that it is the labor market as part of a generalized system of commodity exchange that enforces an objective meaning on a unit of labor time as socially necessary.
I don't even believe in value theory, why should I have to explain this point to its advocates?
^^^^ CB: I'm not sure there isn't a transitional form of value in the transitional stage.
^^^^
Anyway, can we PLEASE stick to the question: does the distinction between productive and unproductive labor have meaning IN CAPITALISM, especially advanced post-industrial finance capitalism like in modern America, and if so, what meaning does it have?
^^^^^ CB: Whatever distinction might be made, the key is not to introduce an idea that will be the basis for some further division of the working class (Workers of the World , unite ! wake up prince Ian) . You had it right when you mentioned the need to answer your question in relation to practice, class struggle.
--- Shane Mage <shmage at pipeline.com> wrote: