Dwayne Monroe ----
Julio H to John Thornton:
You and Obama's other detractors are trying to paint him as politically dangerous. He might well be, but that cannot be determined on the basis of claims like yours.
....................
Ironically, Glen Ford's critique, which I heavily quoted here -
<http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20080107/000587.html>
is robustly confirmed by the way you and other on-list Obama enthusiasts craft your arguments.
BHO is a run-of-the-mill neolib politician.
And yet, over the past few weeks he has been described - by list members, not just the heavy breathers of the NYT and other official lib organs we've snarkily quoted - as measurably more progressive than HRC, as a latter day Jackie Robinson, as, due to his directly mixed parentage and message of "hope", a uniter of White and Black and the architect of the inherently 'radical' act of voting for a Black guy for prez, as a booster of beleaguered self esteem, as Nietzsche's superman and the archives know what other astounding things
This is a remarkable set of attributes to attach to a DLC supported, corporate candidate
^^^^^^^ CB: Actually, no it's not so remarkable. Obamaphobia is distorting a lot of thinking around here. As to the DLC, challenging a Clinton is quintessentially challenging the DLC.
^^^
which demonstrates what Glen Ford meant when he said to Doug:
...it is important to understand that this not just an intra-black affair - that is very important to those of us who are black and care first and foremost about the health of the black polity. But if the black polity descends into incoherence - and this is already happening
^^^^ CB: Naww. If anything, Obama is making the Black polity less incoherent than it has been in recent years.
^^^^
and Barack Obama has not yet won a primary [stated before Iowa: .d.] - but it is already underway. If committed, life long activists like Charles Barron can be paralyzed, put into a kind of comatose stupor just by the presence of this corporate funded black candidate then we are in real trouble. And if the black polity becomes fractured or just paralyzed then there really is no hope for anything resembling a progressive movement in the United States.
^^^^ CB: Glen Ford is writing as if in a comatose stupor when he claims that Obama is fracturing and paralyzing "the Black polity" ( How is there a Black polity but no Black community ?)
[...]
full interview -
<http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#080103>
I've quoted this statement several times. Each time, I've been told that no one is paralyzed; everyone's alert and on their toes. Despite this supposed situational awareness, smart and experienced people such as Julio are using extraordinarily flattering words to depict BHO.
^^^^^ CB: That quote is seeming less and less cogent as time goes by.
Julio's discussion seems more cogent than that of those he's arguing with. You all keeping saying it's "people who should know better" too. I'm starting to think they do know better. Better than you.
Let's quote Julio again:
You [John Thornton] and Obama's other detractors are trying to paint him as politically dangerous
[...]
Yes, and where is that danger?
^^^^^ CB: So far, you all have failed to make out a case that Obama is dangerous, or more dangerous than the other candidates. Thus, we must dub your Obama danger warnings as "Obamaphobia".
^^^^^^
I suggest you look at your own words: a thoroughly corporate politician is being hailed as a thoroughly progressive force. And note how this is framed. His politics are unexceptional so he can't be praised too strongly from that angle (Max has offered BHO a cautious compliment by calling him a little more progressive than HRC but that wasn't pursued too far).
No, his politics are overlooked in favor of his fluidly defined person. He's Black and Whites are voting for him; this must mean that progressive things are happening.
^^^^^ CB: That's right. People who should know better are ignoring this big fact. Getting whites to vote for a Black is one of the most progressive things a Democrat can do.
^^^^
He's Black and non-Whites (including, of course, a good number of Blacks) are excited; this must mean that progressive things are happening.
For years, Carrol Cox has warned us about the folly of centering our hopes (or any hope, really) on the Democratic party. Every four years we argue over which Dem candidate is marginally closer to our point of view and which candidate is more likely to pursue an agenda which somewhat resembles progressive politics - or at least, hold Republican excesses at bay.
Our debates are misguided, Carrol tells us, because, for the sake of argument we overlook or diminish the DP's critical role in supporting imperialism, neoliberalism and capital generally.
These arguments have traditionally been a tug of war between those who demonstrate their awareness of the DP's power elite role, while seeing them as a firewall of sorts and those who insist that the DP has no role whatsoever to play in the furthering of a progressive agenda.
In other words, there's a fundamentally shared analysis of the DP, even as arrows are shot back and forth across the water over tactics.
How different that is from our discussions of Obama.
In the unique case of BHO, we're witnessing smart list members say, on the one hand, that of course BHO is not very progressive (as a political entity) while asserting, on the other hand, that he is remarkably progressive - as the alleged embodiment of a grab bag full of dreams.
^^^^^ CB: Where exactly did somebody say or paraphrase :
"that of course BHO is not very progressive (as a political entity) while asserting, on the other hand, that he is remarkably progressive - as the alleged embodiment of a grab bag full of dreams."
^^^^^
We're witnessing - in real time - the suspension of mature disbelief.
^^^^ CB: And you are simulating the little boy who cried wolf, Obama being the wolf in this case.
I think Carrol has described this as being the result of exhaustion: after 8 years of Bush and many more years besides of long defeat, leftists are weary and looking for a life raft to cling to.
^^^^^ CB: What's exhausted is Carrol's whole take on all this now and over the years.