full: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/saturdayextra/stories/2007/1932330.htm#transcript
Mike B)
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Doogue: Earlier this week I spoke with her, and we talked first about why despite her obvious determination, she has limited choices.
Benazir Bhutto: I said I didn't choose this life because I really wanted a different kind of life, as a diplomat, serving my country in the international arena. But when my father was imprisoned and finally when he was hanged, I thought it was very important to continue with his mission of a democratic Pakistan. Pakistan has not had democracy, and I feel that unless Pakistan is a democracy, it would be wrong for me to give up the mission that I embraced as a young child, as a young woman.
Geraldine Doogue: Dare I ask you honestly then, it's a burden you carry?
Benazir Bhutto: I wouldn't call it a burden, because it's a great honour to have the support of your own people and to have the support of the party, but I certainly consider it a duty. My father often said that politics for him was a romance, but for me politics has been a sense of responsibility and a duty to the people who believed in my father's mission for democracy and who'd given untold sacrifices for democracy. I think it's important to continue that work.
Geraldine Doogue: So it's like a calling, almost?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, it's like a calling. It's all-consuming. Sometimes I just wonder where it will all go to. I never have time to pause - when we were in government we were busy with government, and in opposition the regime never left me alone. So sometimes I feel I'm always running, running, running, and yet Pakistan's not a democracy. And I would so very much like in my lifetime to see it as a functioning democracy like our neighbour, India, or our neighbour Sri Lanka.
Geraldine Doogue: Well indeed. Dare I ask you; is it ready for democracy?
Benazir Bhutto: Well it's a very good question because I remember when we were initially struggling for democracy, we were so much more closer to the founding principles of Pakistan, but in the last 30 years, we've had two periods of very long military dictatorships, which have seen the rise of religious parties, extremists, militant groups, and I believe the challenges have become more formidable. But at the same time, I have so much trust in the people of Pakistan, and in their yearning for freedom and human dignity, and democracy as a means to development.
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Geraldine Doogue: Benazir Bhutto is my welcome guest on Saturday Extra this morning.I wonder what your verdict is on how Pakistan has fared since September 11th, with President Musharraf's declaration that he join with the United States in the war on terror. Lots of transformations occurred. How do you rate them?
Benazir Bhutto: Initially when following the events of 9/11, there was a lot of promise when General Musharraf broke ties with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and promised to co-operate with the international community in fighting terrorism and extremism. Subsequently an attack to place on the Indian Parliament, which nearly brought India and Pakistan to war, and General Musharraf again very correctly said that he would work with India to fight terrorism. But I'm afraid since those initial days, there's been a large disconnect between what the government said and what is actually happening within Pakistan, because within Pakistan, we have seen a creeping Talibanisation take place; we've seen the moderate parties marginalised, a vacuum created, and the extremist and religious forces filling that vacuum. So now I really worry about Pakistan because the tribal areas have been conceded to the pro-Taliban forces, and in our frontier region, the militants are taking over several cities. Even in the capital of Islamabad, some of the clerics have announced that they're going to enforce a parallel justice system based on their interpretation of religion. So I feel that despite the noble promises made, Pakistan today is much worse off domestically than it was after 9/11.
Geraldine Doogue: And whose fault is this, Ms Bhutto?
Benazir Bhutto: Well I believe that the lack of genuine democracy has actually fuelled the fire of extremism. In fact, the religious parties voted to ban twice-elected Prime Ministers from ever contesting again, and those parties were given a level playing field in Pakistan with the ruling party, whereas my party didn't have its leader even in Pakistan, and Nawaz Sharif is in exile too. So I believe that while General Musharraf has made the right policy declarations about confronting Talibanisation, and extremism, his determination to sideline the moderate political parties has been detrimental to Pakistan's modernisation.
Geraldine Doogue: Are you confident that if you were to return, you could make things any better? Is it not possible that there's just this huge struggle for the soul of Pakistan under way at the moment? That is under way in other places as well, and that there's no room for moderation just now?
Benazir Bhutto: I don't agree with the view that there's no room for moderation. A recent poll by the International Republican Institute showed that the Pakistan People's Party is the most popular party, and the people of Pakistan have honoured me with the largest number of support compared to other political parties. Moreover, religious parties have never won more than 10% to 13% of the national vote in any fair general election. Their support is disproportionately in the security establishment or within the armed forces and the educational institutes. I feel that if democracy is restored, a democratic government can attend to the basic needs of the people, and it's the neglect of the social issues, and it's the neglect of the governance that leads unemployed and poor people to turn towards the madrassas who provide free clothing and shelter and food, and therefore fill a social gap. But they also brainwash the students that go to work there.
Geraldine Doogue: So you know, in the last couple of months, we've seen enormous unrest in Pakistan, and this of course, a lot of us have felt this is brewing for a while, but the suspension of Chief Justice Mohammed Chaudhry seems to have sparked protests that have brought out the middle classes, the so-called 'black-coats'. Do you think it's possible that this is going to be a bit of a tipping point, that General Musharraf may be forced to move towards democratic reform?
Benazir Bhutto: Certainly the people of the country have all rallied around the top judge of Pakistan. They felt that he was removed to undermine the Supreme Court and allow the present political system to survive. And people of Pakistan don't support the present political system, which has seen the real issues of the people neglected. I think that unless General Musharraf takes a political initiative, the regime could be in very deep trouble. General Musharraf gave a statement saying that he sticks to his policy of excluding the leaders of the two mainstream parties, and that worried me, because I would have thought that after months of civil unrest he would have reviewed the politics that has led to the present political crisis.
Geraldine Doogue: Well there have been reports, the BBC among others have been reporting that you and the General have been trying to negotiate a deal. So this was a very absolute statement. I mean clearly, well can I infer that you are disappointed, that something might have been on the cards?
Benazir Bhutto: I certainly was disappointed with the statement because there is a political crisis in Pakistan, and we need political initiatives to resolve this crisis. My party has had contacts with General Musharraf, because we feel it's important for us to work out a transition to democracy and we believe that democracy can best undermine religious extremism. We would like to see the moderate forces come together in building a moderate Pakistan. And so I was deeply disappointed by this comment; this was General Musharraf's policy in the past, but I thought that given the events since particularly March 9th, when the Chief Justice was sacked, that he would have reviewed the situation.
Geraldine Doogue: So what do you think has altered? Do you suspect the hand of the military, your, the Bhutto family's great opponents?
Benazir Bhutto: I'm not sure whether it was the military. I know there's a sense that the military is a great opponent of the Bhutto family, but I have never felt that the military itself destabilised my government; I have always said that it was the intelligence apparatus, and I felt it was the intelligence apparatus that fed concocted stories to the military to alienate them from the government, and right now I think it's the ruling party; these are the structures General Musharraf put into place -
Geraldine Doogue: This is an extraordinary coalition isn't it - that he's got in place at the moment?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, but this is the coalition that is very fearful, and this coalition in my view, has elements within it who are supported by those who back Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden, and they are dead scared that if democracy is restored and the Pakistan People's Party comes back to power, then they will be on the run. So we're not here talking just about the soul of Pakistan, in terms of democracy versus dictatorship, we're really talking about the future direction of a lot of movements within the Muslim world, that impinge on al-Qa'eda and the forces of terrorism.
Geraldine Doogue: But this is where Musharraf himself is quite wedged, isn't he? Because there are elements in his stitched-together coalition, who I don't - well the West hasn't sort of fully grasped - they are really quite unfriendly to the West. So I just wonder how much room he has to move. After all, he has survived two assassination attempts.
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, he has survived two assassination attempts, but in his failure to move, he has allowed the Taliban to regroup in the tribal areas and establish a base over there. And this is what worries me, because following 9/11, if there had been a restoration of democracy, there were no Taliban there, and they would have not regrouped and reorganised themselves. Uprooting groups is much more difficult than preventing them from establishing themselves, so the longer General Musharraf walks this delicate balance, the deeper becomes the crisis, and the more difficult becomes the cure. I think he has to revert to the forces of democracy. In 1996 there was no such thing as al-Qa'eda, the Taliban did not allow al-Qa'eda to come and train people and recruit them and declare war on foreign countries in America and others. And it's only democracy that in my view can drive out the extremists and the terrorists. And their supporters do not want democracy, and specifically they don't want the PPP, because they know what the PPP did to the forces of terrorism in 1993 following the first attack on the World Trade towers, we dismantled their cells, we went after them and they know we have the ability to do so again.
Geraldine Doogue: You're not - well it sounds a silly question, but it would be a very dangerous thing to go back, would it not? Thinking of your three children, and head up the PPP, with militant Islam clearly on the rise?
Benazir Bhutto: Well certainly I know that there are dangers involved, and I don't plan on taking my children back because I think the situation is far too dangerous at the moment, but I feel that as a twice-elected Prime Minister, I have a responsibility to my people; I have a responsibility to my country, and I must take the risks that are necessary to try and salvage the situation.
Geraldine Doogue: So you think that despite Musharraf's announcements you could return to Pakistan in the near future?
Benazir Bhutto: I plan to return. I plan to return this year, and if I return to negotiate a settlement, well and good. But even if there is no negotiated settlement, I still plan to return to Pakistan because I feel that I've stayed away far too long, I've done the best that I could from afar, and now the time has come for me to go back.
Geraldine Doogue: I wonder, a liberal-minded woman like yourself, it's an extraordinary thing to many minds, that you were elected twice before in a Muslim country like Pakistan, but given the change in temperament in that country, you're confident that you would be accepted again, are you?
Benazir Bhutto: I am confident that the moderate forces would accept me, and I am confident that without the State looking away, it will be much more difficult for the extremists and the terrorists to try and take over Pakistan. But I fear that they're planning a soft revolution. They're planning on infiltrating a law enforcement, so that when they set up their parallel administrations, and they set up their distorted interpretations of my religion of Islam, there will be no State force to confront them. When people are unarmed, as the public in Pakistan are, and if they don't have the safety and security provided by law enforcement, then they're like plums ready to fall into the hands of the extremists and the militants. But as Prime Minister of Pakistan, although I was not constitutionally empowered to control the military, I still seemed to have more control over the government than General Musharraf who is the Chief of Army Staff. In my time, in Pakistan there was an attempt to set up a militant base in Malakand, and we crushed it. We never allowed any militants or extremists to call the shots; they were on the run, they were hiding, we were disarming their madrasais, we were shutting down the university, an Islamic university in Peshawar, they fought against my government, they tried to hijack buses and kidnap people. But we faced them, and by 1995, we had routed them out. And in 1996 Pakistan was a safe and stable country. But with the dismissal of my government, the slide towards extremism began.
Geraldine Doogue: Well I wish you luck. We'll watch with interest to see whether you do return and at what time. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
Benazir Bhutto: Thank you very much indeed.
"Would you have freedom from wage-slavery.." Joe Hill http://www.shelfari.com/o1516968161
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