> From: Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba to abandon salary equality
> To: "lbo lbo" <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>, swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au
> Received: Sunday, 15 June, 2008, 11:05 AM
> Or, you could live in the real world in the impoverished
> USSR of the 20s-30s, in which you had to make a practical
> decision of how to allocate goods. Leave the "it was
> supposed to be" out of things. (Although I think that
> your version of what 1917 was supposed to be about is
> different than what the people who carried it out that it
> was.)
Yeah Chris, you could live under Stalinist police-State capitalism, as opposed to the lower stage of communism. Failure to abolish the wage system, was precisely what Marx was criticising the Social Democrats of the Goth Programme for i.e. attempting to run capitalism as opposed to overthrowing it and what he was slamming Proudhon for in his 'equality of wages" scheme, enforceable only by employing the most brutal methods of party dictatorship, and this from an anarchist.
The "real world" was what was supposed to be changed; because the "real world" was class ruled, slavish, submissive and sadistically dominated by the few who controlled the wealth produced under the wage system. The 'real (capitalist) world' was supposed to supplanted by a free association of producers using the means of production for themselves to create use values based on their needs. But that never happen, GI. And a lot of the reason why it didn't happen is directly connected to the wages system, a social relation of Capital, in this case a generalised Capital as opposed to private Capital.
My point is that the transitional measures meant to push the USSR towards communism, taken by the people who ended up leading/controlling the CPSU State dictatorship, have been proven over the course of the 20th Century to be faulty. Furthermore, these methods, including at their core, the setting up of a State controlled wages system, have been more or less copied by every M-L dictatorship since the October Revolution. Ergo, the failure of 'actually existing socialism' to achieve communism; instead, transitioning to full blown capitalism. However, as communism has never really been your cuppa, (remembering that you once declared yourself more sympathetic to the Mensheviks than the Bolsheviks), I don't suppose this matters much to you.
Mike B)
The carbon atoms in your body were forged inside a star somewhere, billions of years ago. http://www.myspace.com/ballardoso
>
> --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Mike Ballard
> <swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > From: Mike Ballard <swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba to abandon salary
> equality
> > To: "lbo lbo" <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> > Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 7:40 PM
> > You could use Marx's suggestion from the
> "Critique
> > of the Gotha" programme or elsewhere, as opposed
> to
> > Proudhon's "equality of wages" concept.
> > People could draw from the social store of goods and
> > services on the basis of how many socially necessary
> hours
> > they put into the production of goods and services,
> minus
> > the amount necessary to maintain and expand the means
> of
> > production. After all, it was SUPPOSED to be a
> communist
> > revolution.
> >
> > Mike B)
> >
> > The carbon atoms in your body were forged inside a
> star
> > somewhere, billions of years ago.
> > http://www.myspace.com/ballardoso
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 14/6/08, Chris Doss
> > <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba to abandon salary
> > equality
> > > To: swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au
> > > Received: Saturday, 14 June, 2008, 11:57 PM
> > > How was the USSR supposed to pay people? You go
> to the
> > store
> > > and get annthing you want?
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Mike Ballard
> > > <swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Mike Ballard
> > <swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba to abandon
> salary
> > > equality
> > > > To: "lbo lbo"
> > <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> > > > Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:31 AM
> > > > Chris writes:
> > > >
> > > > > I know nothing about Cuba, but the
> whole
> > > "salary
> > > > ceiling" system was very
> > > > > unpopular in the USSR.
> > > > ============================
> > > > Lots of discussion about this on Lou
> > Proyect's
> > > list. Be
> > > > interested to hear
> > > > more on the unpopularity of the system in
> the
> > USSR. My
> > > > take: Cuba is being
> > > > forced to follow the path taken by the
> Soviets,
> > > Chinese,
> > > > and others who
> > > > abolished and then restored capitalism:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.marxmail.org/msg42977.html
> > > >
> > > > http://www.marxmail.org/msg42945.html
> > > > ************
> > > >
> > > > As Marx pointed out, where there is wage
> labour,
> > there
> > > is
> > > > capital. It's no wonder to me why the
> > trasition
> > > to
> > > > communism beccame a transition to full blown
> > > industrial
> > > > capitalism.
> > > >
> > > > Mike B)
> > > > **************
> > > >
> > > > The very development of modern industry must
> > > progressively
> > > > turn the scale in favour of the capitalist
> > against the
> > > > working man, and that consequently the
> general
> > > tendency of
> > > > capitalistic production is not to raise, but
> to
> > sink
> > > the
> > > > average standard of wages, or to push the
> value
> > of
> > > labour
> > > > more or less to its minimum limit. Such
> being the
> > > tendency
> > > > of things in this system, is this saying
> that the
> > > working
> > > > class ought to renounce their resistance
> against
> > the
> > > > encroachments of capital, and abandon their
> > attempts
> > > at
> > > > making the best of the occasional chances
> for
> > their
> > > > temporary improvement? If they did, they
> would be
> > > degraded
> > > > to one level mass of broken wretches past
> > > salvation.... By
> > > > cowardly giving way in their everyday
> conflict
> > with
> > > > capital, they would certainly disqualify
> > themselves
> > > for the
> > > > initiating of any larger movement.
> > > >
> > > > At the same time, and quite apart from the
> > general
> > > > servitude involved in the wages system, the
> > working
> > > class
> > > > ought not to exaggerate to themselves the
> > ultimate
> > > working
> > > > of these everyday struggles. They ought not
> to
> > forget
> > > that
> > > > they are fighting with effects, but not with
> the
> > > causes of
> > > > those effects; that they are retarding the
> > downward
> > > > movement, but not changing its direction;
> that
> > they
> > > are
> > > > applying palliatives, not curing the malady.
> They
> > > ought,
> > > > therefore, not to be exclusively absorbed in
> > these
> > > > unavoidable guerilla fights incessantly
> springing
> > up
> > > from
> > > > the never-ceasing encroachments of capital
> or
> > changes
> > > of
> > > > the market. They ought to understand that,
> with
> > all
> > > the
> > > > miseries it imposes upon them, the present
> system
> > > > simultaneously engenders the material
> conditions
> > and
> > > the
> > > > social forms necessary for an economical
> > > reconstruction of
> > > > society. Instead of the conservative motto,
> A
> > fair
> > > > day's wage for a fair day's work!
> they
> > ought
> > > to
> > > > inscribe on their banner the
> > > > revolutionary watchword, Abolition of the
> wages
> > > system!
> > > >
> > > > Marx, 'Value, Price and Profit'
> > > >
> > > > The carbon atoms in your body were forged
> inside
> > a
> > > star
> > > > somewhere, billions of years ago.
> > > > http://www.myspace.com/ballardoso
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Get the name you always wanted with
> the new
> > > y7mail
> > > > email address.
> > > > www.yahoo7.com.au/mail
> > > >
> > > > ___________________________________
> > > >
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> >
> >
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