[lbo-talk] The State and Capitalism

[Peter Hart Ward]

Actually, there is scores of literature on the subject, in particular  
anarchist/libertarian literature; though how relevant much of it is  
to present circumstance is open to question. However, our present  
economic arrangement, of which money, in some form, appears to be an  
integral part, is manifestly not "working" for the vast majority of  
people on the planet. Clearly there is a problem and the fact an  
obvious solution hasn't presented itself readymade, a hopeless  
exception at an rate, is not a valid reason not to seek a solution --  
a task, whether one likes it or not, that implies experimentation and  
mistakes. The argument here seems to be analogous to saying because a  
cure, or good treatment, for cancer hasn't been found we should all  
pretend cancer isn't a terrible disease.

I should note that my own opinion is not as pessimistic as that  
typically expressed on the left--if one reflects on the most  
rewarding aspects of his or her life one will find, I believe, that  
they invariably have nothing to do with money. The solution, it seems  
to me, is strait-forward in principle: we need to combine what we  
find truly rewarding with what needs to be done --
"[I]t seems as if all the peasants and craftsmen might be elevated  
into artists; that is, into men who love their labor for its own  
sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and inventive skill, and  
thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character, and exalt  
and refine their enjoyments." (Wilhelm von Humboldt, "Limits of State  
Action")

On Mar 11, 2008, at 3:52 PM, John Thornton wrote:


> Miles Jackson wrote:
>> John Thornton wrote:
>>
>>> With the exception of the anarcho-primitivists who would have  
>>> everyone
>>> subsistence farm or some such nonsense I've yet to see any serious
>>> proposal about how such a society would function. I'm being generous
>>> including anarcho-primitivists ideas as serious but while  
>>> undesirable it
>>> is possible so feel I should I include it.
>>>
>>> John Thornton
>>> ___________________________________
>>>
>>>
>> It's important to keep in mind that money is a relatively recent
>> innovation in human societies.  For the vast majority of our  
>> existence
>> on this planet, humans have done quite nicely without currency, so
>> there's certainly nothing natural or inevitable about currency-based
>> economies.  And just as many people in slave-owning societies  
>> couldn't
>> imagine what life would be like without slaves, many people in our
>> currency-based society cannot imagine life without money.
>>
>> Note that this is not an argument in favor of "anarcho-primitivism"
>> (whatever that is).  It's a reiteration of the fact that many social
>> conditions that are considered inevitable at time A turn out to be
>> socially malleable at time B.
>>
>> Miles
>
>
> There was no time when people could not theorize about how life  
> would be
> without slaves. they simply chose not to theorize about such a society
> and to maintain the status quo.
> How would one theorize a moneyless society that was not in the mold of
> anarcho-primitivism and would not be more exploitative than  
> capitalism?
> If no one can propose any seriously plausible theory about how such a
> society would be structured then imaging oneself working towards that
> goal is literally insane.
>
> John Thornton
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