>>> "James Heartfield"
Charles replies to my point that life in primitive societies was cruel unrewarding and stupid:
CB: Don't have much data by which we can exclude the European imperialists, colonialists and slavers as the main cause of the cruelty, an lack of reward. The "stupidity" part is racist.
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Which I think is a bit of a weird response. ^^^ CB: Well, a weird response is appropriate to a weird statement from you. ^^^
Did I say that those who lived in those societies were to blame? No. ^^^^ CB: The point is that because of the destructive impact of European imperialism, colonialism and slavery on the societies around the world which are all the direct evidence of whether the lives in primary cultural society was cruel and unrewarding that European anthropologists and historians have ( which is almost the only source of James's data on these primary cultural or kincentric, foraging and gardening societies), we don't know that most of the primary cultural societies in history had cruel or happy, unrewarding or rewarding lives in general; and the cruelty and lack of reward in the societies we do know of can be attributed not to their primary cultural mode of production and life, but to the destructive impact of capitalist imperialism, colonialism and slavery.
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The conditions of there existence did not let them rise further. And Charles is right that if you are talking about societies that were made primitive in the modern era, then yes indeed, those who held them back, like colonists, imperialists and slavers were responsible. The fact remains that their lives were cruel and unrewarding. What should we do? Pretend that their lives are rewarding, because we might offend their feeling? No. If you cannot recognise the need for change, you will not make it.
^^^^ CB: Yes, end imperialism and colonialism , in the first place. Then recognize that those societies have something to teach capitalism : abolish the patriarchal family, private property and the state. Just take Engels' title and reverse the old process, but at a higher level of the spiral that Jenny mentioned the other day. Primitive communism teaches modern capitalism that it must transform into modern communism.
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Charles goes on to say it is racist to say that life in primitive societies is stupid. But that is not to say that those who live in such societies are innately stupid. Only that limiting conditions limit intellectual development, too. Should we tell people that illiteracy is OK? No. that is why education always played such a major part in anti-imperialist struggles. The opponents of oppression always understood that subjugation was degrading and stupifying.
^^^ CB: Well, capitalism is looking pretty stupid right now in terms of its impact on the human situation, with its threats of nuclear annihilation, other giant wars, and global warming, oil depletion, water depletion. The primary cultures aren't doing anything like that, or weren't before they were destroyed by capitalist globalist colonialism. So, who you calling stupid ? And the primary cultures survived for 100's of thousands of years. And you really can't say that most of that life was cruel and unrewarding or whether it was like the Garden of Eden or Sahlins' original affluent society .
I'll take Sahlins over you as far as familiarity with all the available, relevant data on this question. Sahlins claims that Hobbes and you are wrong on the nasty , brutish and short character of the tens of millions of lives down through the millenia, the ten millenia and the hundreds of millenia of stone age economical society. Capitalism has only existed for 500 years ,and already threatens the survival of our species. Or male supremecist, class divided and state dominated society has only existed for 12 thousand years , and has brought us capitalism as its ultimate form which threatens the species' survival.
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Chris says Plato was clever, even though his society was primitive. So he was. But five sixths of the people around him were slaves. Women were subordinate. Plato himself was exceptional in being able to read. Socrates could not. Among the democratic elite in Athens writing things down had been thought to be degrading work. ___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
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