[lbo-talk] Hamid Dabashi on Iran

[ravi]

On Jun 16, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Dennis Claxton wrote:
> At 01:02 PM 6/16/2009, ravi wrote:
>
>> Here are the next two sentences:
>>
>>> It is important to keep in mind that Ahmadinejad's supporters come
>>> from the poorest and most disenfranchised segments of ...
>> ...snip...
>>> ... charlatanism. The supporters of Mir-Hossein Mousavi and the
>>> Reformist movement come from a vast trajectory of Iranian society.
>>
>> Let us read it as one might a logical inference process. Here is how
>> that turns out for me, and you tell me how you might break it down:
>>
>> 1. A's supporters come from poorest and most disenfranchised segments
>
> Let us read the sentence before the ones you quote:
>
>> The following day, on 14 June, the government staged a major pro- 
>> Ahmadinejad rally in which his supporters were bussed in from  
>> surrounding villages.
>
> So he's saying A's supporters come from the poorest and most  
> disenfranchised segments that he bussed in.
>

So what of it? Are you saying that Dabashi is only speaking of those  
bused in? That the few thousands who were brought in are the ones  
fooled by Ahmadinejad? I am not sure that's the case... I think  
Ahmadinejad does draw support from the poorest (isn't that a fact?)  
and that's the group Dabashi is talking about (not just the subset of  
them who were bused in). But even if Dabashi was making his statement  
only about those bused in, they seem to apply as well for everyone who  
voted for him (in this and previous elections), and hence to the  
majority of the poor and disenfranchised.

I think Dabashi would agree with Chris's point expressed mildly: i.e.,  
a good part of the poor/disenfranchised are being fooled by  
Ahmadinejad. I am not sure how Dabashi or anyone else explains the  
"fooled" part (after all the burden of backing up that claim lies on  
them). How is it that a rural voter choosing Ahmadinejad is in reality  
being a fool, which (s)he would not be if (s)he voted for Mousavi?

On Jun 16, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Shane Mage wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2009, at 4:02 PM, ravi wrote:
>> For #2 to not be a *general* statement about the poor/ 
>> disenfranchised, #5 has to be significant i.e., Y > X. But given  
>> that Ahmadinejad...runs up huge numbers...That makes it highly  
>> unlikely that those who support Mousavi from that community (the  
>> subset Y) is anywhere close in number to those who support  
>> Ahmadinejad (subset X).
>
> But since almost all Iranians are poor, and all but the mullahs and  
> their minions are disenfranchised, and given that a winning  
> candidate's sponsors have no reason blatantly to falsify  the actual  
> vote the way they have in fact done--it is clear that this argument  
> is completely false.

But Dabashi didn't write "poor" and "disenfranchised". He wrote  
"poorest" and "most disenfranchised". Clearly he sees differences and  
classes were you see none.

I cannot understand the second part of your refutation of my argument:  
are you saying that the powerful clerics falsified the vote because in  
truth, Ahmadinejad does not draw support from the [majority of the]  
poor and disenfranchised?

	--ravi