[lbo-talk] Ralph loves the nice plutocrats

c b cb31450 at gmail.com
Fri Sep 25 10:23:43 PDT 2009


Chris Doss ------------------------------------------- sBut this is my point!! In the absence of a state, you do not have a "legal right to organize, assemble, and to freely communicate." You have no enforceable rights to anything!! as long as somebody stronger than you doesn't want you to have them. Those rights are only possible because of the state.

^^^^^ CB: hmmm and these rights are only necessary when a state exists.

In general, the "legal right to organize, assemble or to freely communicate" means the ability to do so without the _state_ preventing you from doing it ( and most often it means the right to do so in order to change the state itself). It doesn't mean the state defending you from non-state actors preventing you from doing these. These rights, for example contained in the US Bill of Rights or the first 10 Amendments to the US Constitution, are limitations that the state puts on _itself _not to repress individual citizens.

I guess what Chris has in mind is more like criminal or civil laws, wherein the state punishes murder or theft or awards money damages from one citizen to another for torts. But pre-state societies had ways of preventing these problems, or didn't have these problems as they only arise with private property.

Before the bourgeois-democratic republics, states didn't limit themselves on much on the "legal right to organize, assemble or to freely communicate" , except perhaps under enlightened despots on a case by case basis. So, Chris above statements are not true for pre-democratic states.

As to locations on earth that didn't have states in the last few thousand years, such as the Western Hemisphere or Australia or parts of Africa it is not true that "stronger" groups were running around repressing people , and people didn't have a need to organize , assemble or "freely"communicate for the political purposes that people do under societies with states.



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