[lbo-talk] The State (Was: Ralph loves the nice plutocrats)

[Somebody Somebody]

Marvin: True. However, leaving aside the exceptional cases of the fSU and China - which requires a whole separate discussion - your point doesn't contradict that in such cases the product of such development is a capitalist state and economic system. Such developmental states are necessarily more autonomous because their emerging bourgeoisies are too weak to mobilize capital and lay down infrastructure on their own, particularly where there is a legacy of imperialism. Some may have began with "socialist" aspirations but then bumped up against the realities of the capitalist world market and were forced to adapt to it.

Somebody: But, at this point you're conceding that there are two exceptions to the rule that the state serves capital: socialist regimes and developmental states. Those are two pretty significant exceptions that Engels wasn't able to foresee. And then if you add in situations like the transition from feudalism, when one ruling class is being displaced by another, you end up with at least three exceptions to the Marxist schema. 

Part of the issue is the point in time that we're having this debate: right after an epoch of widespread neo-liberal reforms. It certainly does appear *right now* that states are mere servants of the bourgeoisie. But, it hasn't always worked that way. In the past there have been many times when the state has been to the left of it's own citizenry.