[lbo-talk] INSTANT POPULISM: A short history of populism old and new

Wojtek S wsoko52 at gmail.com
Sat Dec 4 08:47:11 PST 2010


Alan: " Do you or do you not agree that the Nazis, once in power, were focused on aggressive technological development in service of blood and soil while the Southern elites and laity behind Jim Crow did not?"

[WS:] I think it is a bit complicated. In Germany, they certainly did, but in Spain and Portugal - not quite so. The latter lagged behind in development under the fascist rule. But then, the Soviets promoted the technological progress too. As to the Southern elites, I am inlined to agree with you. I think what explains this difference is that Euro-fascists were sovereign states and technology (esp. military technology) was critical for maintaining that sovereignty vis a vis other sovereign states, whereas the Southern racists presided over a backwater part of an empire ruled by the highly industrialized North - so their main concern was to maintain their big fish in a little backwater pond status rather than fending off challenges to imperial sovereignty.

Also do not forget that Euro-fascism had a significant backwater rural support especially from labor repressive landlords (the so-called iron-rye alliance.)

So in sum, there is a significant within-group variation re. the technology, and thus I am not sure if it is a good discriminating feature (but I can be persuaded.) My inclination would be to put both in the same basket - or perhaps up against the same wall :)

Wojtek

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Alan Rudy <alan.rudy at gmail.com> wrote:


> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > APR: I think it is really important to define fascism carefully and the
> > definition I think is important to use does not fit with Jim Crow. I see
> > Jim Crow as reactionary and violent but not fascist. Fascism combines an
> > intense cultural romanticism with an aggressive modern technophilia....
> >
> > [WS:] I disagree. Both can be viewed as a violent reaction to big social
> > changes that target a scapegoat and aim at symbolic restoration of
> mythical
> > past rather than attack the social agent of that change (e.g. the
> > industrial
> > bourgeoisie). Barrington Moore called that reaction "catonism," but I
> do
> > not think that terminology matters that much here.
> >
>
> APR: What I don't see here is a rejection of the different role and use of
> advanced technology. Do you or do you not agree that the Nazis, once in
> power, were focused on aggressive technological development in service of
> blood and soil while the Southern elites and laity behind Jim Crow did not?
> I am saying that they are importantly different violent reactions, not that
> they weren't both violent or reactions.
>
> Last, I guess its possible that the industrial bourgeoisie caused the
> problems in the South that led to the institutionalization of Jim Crow -
> though Jim Crow was legislated during the golden age of American
> agriculture
> - but I am more than pretty confident that the problems in Germany weren't
> the making of the German industrial bourgeoisie but, much more, the making
> of the Treaty of Versailles, reparations, etc.
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