> The "no wonder the left...." cliché is pretty offensive. (I assume "we"
> refers to leftists or, worse, "the left.")
I agree that it's both a cliche and offensive, and regret using it. I was annoyed with Dennis' invocation of "Fayetteville, Arkansas" as a kind of synecdoche for "all that is not elite," which I took to reflect a kind of elitist bias of its own. It may have been an over-reaction, but that's what I was reacting to - not to any supposed "triviality" of a relatively light-hearted discussion, which I don't have any reason to object to.
I also appreciate the thoughtful response to my earlier query. I think the language here around persuasion is at odds with an argument you've made a number of times about the "pointlessness" of persuasion (from memory; I don't recall if that's the word you've used). But I've always taken those posts as more a kind of exhortation not to be naive about the differences between force and idea, than as trying to make some kind of philosophical point. So the list doesn't really surprise me, but it's useful to have it to ponder. Thanks.