[lbo-talk] Voyage en Icarie - no we can't! Re: clarification

shag carpet bomb shag at cleandraws.com
Sun Feb 14 05:59:08 PST 2010


At 08:51 AM 2/14/2010, SA wrote:
>I think we basically understand each other now. I just want to say that
>here I think you're turning things upside down. When this subject comes
>up, it's usually not because "blueprinters" are demanding that
>"non-blueprinters" supply blueprints; at most, the latter typically are
>merely asked what they mean by socialism in the most general terms.
>Instead, usually it's the opposite that happens: Whenever "blueprinters"
>want to talk about what socialism might be, or about the need to talk
>about it, they're shouted down or lectured by "non-blueprinters" about how
>un-Marxist or undemocratic they're being. (I'm only using this terminology
>out of convenience, based on your use of the term blueprint.)

oh. not in my experience. i mean, here, yes: but you're talking about Cox specifically. he does that about everything. for years, Carrol has been certain that no one should ever talk about the middle class. yadda. I just ignore it now.

I should have made clear that my experience with demands for blueprints is that the people making them are usually looking for the minute details that they can object to and buttress the yes to capitalism they already embrace. I was talking more about whether it's worth efforts to try to persuade people by building blueprints for them.


>Also, I appreciate your point about Gotha being an unusual departure for
>Marx, but I still think it's a big problem, on a Marxological level, for
>those who claim that Marx was unalterably opposed to any form of this kind
>of thing. I doubt he scribbled the thing on a lark without thinking much
>about it. And he was actually suggesting his ideas be incorporated into a
>formal party program! Plus, while it may have been rare for Marx, it
>wasn't rare for Engels, who talked about this stuff a lot, especially in
>Anti-Duhring.

yah. why Charles lurvs Engels so much. :)

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