[lbo-talk] March 4

[Carrol Cox]

These arguments have too much of a textbook quality, assuming an
identity between intentions and results. The revolu6tons of the 20th-c
utterly transformed the world, and though the aims for which the
revolutionaries struggled were not (and I think could not have) been
fulfilled, the actual achievements of those revolutions depended on
those aims! A "liberal-democratic" regime in either Russia or China
would have left those nations mired in the past. Moreover, without the
threat represented by first the *Doviet Union and then the PRC, the
gains made by reformers in Europe and the U.S. would never have been
achieved. In other words, the REvolutions were successful, and probably
theonly route to that success, though they failed schoolbook texts of
success. But of course the Democratic Revolutions of th 19th century
equally failed to achieve their intended aims.

Carrol

Bhaskar Sunkara wrote:
> 
> Awkward phrasing (typo) on my part: the point is the the British LP isn't a
> social liberal party... not yet at least.  Also, there hasn't been a single
> "workers' state" since at least 1923, much less 'states'.
> 
> On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Somebody Somebody <philos_case at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> >
> > Bhaskar: Have parties like British Labour have become indistinguishable
> > from social
> > liberal parties?  I'm with Macnair's analysis here:
> > http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker2/780/making.php
> >
> > Somebody: The problem here is that the reforms initiated by social
> > democratic parties have been proven to be more durable than the
> > revolutionary changes initiated by worker's states. Not only that, but the
> > neo-liberal rollback of of reformism has been very much a partial reversal,
> > whereas the changes in the socialist countries have been more thorough. So,
> > why shouldn't workers support the traditional social democratic (now social
> > liberal, if you like) parties and institutions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
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