[lbo-talk] "Liberalism" - It's in the genes

[Alan Rudy]

Double horsepoop.  What a canard, "all human behaviors."
Triple horsepoop. Every form is NOT determined genetically since, as you
point out, all genetic expression is environmentally mediated and the whole
of developmental biology and the intersection of physical and cultural
anthropology - except for the innordinately rare sociobiologist - points
away from your argument.
Quadruple horsepoop. There's a difference between the genetic human capacity
for a particular range of cognitive practices and any particular
historically and materially contextual practice.
Quintuple horsepoop.  Tricky, my ass, wrongheaded is the idea of tying
voting to genetic makeup as if any single gene did anything by itself - as
the article claims - and as if voting, much less voting for any particular
party, meant the same thing across space, time and political economic and
sociocultural conditions.  Have you heard of Dixiecrats and New England
Republicans - the study is a farce.
Sextuple horsepoop.  There are no single genetic, much less single
gene-single environment, triggers that are defensible in the slightest when
it comes to any particular action or set of actions by individuals with
different complexes of genes, environments and prior rounds of
gene-environment relations... much less if you make any reasonable attempt
to put any of those actions in space and time.  What the hell would this guy
do in a parliamentary system where he didn't have a wildly-constrained and
deductivist dichotomous political spectrum to use to parse his data on?
Septuple horsepoop.  Personality traits are genetically inherited, what
planet do you live on.  Yeah, those Irish, or do I mean just the O'Connors?,
or do I mean just O'Connors with exclusively Irish genes, or do I mean just
O'Connors with a particularly male lineage, or a particular female lineage?
they're a hotheaded group because hotheadedness is an inhereted personality
trait utterly unmediated by social or cultural conditions.
Octuple horsepoop.  Cognitive framings are genetic, and therefore rooted in
personality, rather than material semiotic and rooted in situated knowledges
now?  Have you ever read any liberal, much less, socialist feminist
anti-racist science studies? Any at all?
Nononuple(? sure, I could look it up by that's not the point is it?)
horsepoop.  Your whole argument about cognitive styles moving across the
political spectrum, particularly if rooted in
genetics/inheritance/personality, undermines your support for the argument
in the article... which is that a single genes (+ number of friends as
teenagers - well, duh, its an adolescent panel study) influences whether
people Democratic (liberal) or Republican (conservative).

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:


> [WS:] If here is any horsepop in it, it is the trite liberal idea that
> all human behaviors are learned.  It belongs in the same category as
> immaculate conception.  Every life form in the world is determined
> genetically, so those who believe that human cognition is exempt form
> it may as well claim that it resulted from immaculate conception by
> god and Platonic ideas embedded in sacred culture.
>
> Obviously, linking specific behaviors - such as voting or, for that
> matter, performance on particular types of tests - to genetic makeup
> can be very tricky.  A lot of that stuff was simply pseudo science
> cooked up to support racist ideologies - which gave the idea a bad rap
> and pushed the pendulum to the other, "culturalist" extreme.  But
> there is enough evidence to suggest that human cognition is shaped by
> an interaction of genetic and environmental factors  e.g.
> environmental triggers of genetic traits (i.e. X and Y may have the
> same genes but if environmental stimulus triggers a trait carried by
> those genes in X but not in Y or even if it triggers it at different
> times, the outcomes will be different,) or neuroplasticity in response
> to environmental stimulation.  Even the term 'determinist' is a 19th
> century anachronism - outcomes of genetic/environmental interactions
> are probabilistic not deterministic, so we are dealing with general
> tendencies here not clockwork mechanism controlling every single move.
>
> In any case, there is enough evidence that human cognition is affected
> by personality traits (which are genetically transmitted,) which make
> us more likely to accept certain types of ideas rather than other
> types.  There is also plenty of research (most notably by George
> Lakoff) showing that political ideologies differ in their cognitive
> framing (Lakoff even claims that these frames have neuroplastic
> effects).  So it stands to reason that political ideologies are linked
> to our genetically transmitted affective traits via cognitive framing.
>
> Again, that does not men that voting Dem or Repug is "in the genes" -
> and  honestly think that such formulation is a canard intended to
> discredit the idea without even considering it.  As I already
> mentioned, same cognitive "styles" can be found across the political
> spectrum - rigid-mindedness and the need for closure and certitude can
> be found on both left and right, and so can be more open-minded free
> thinking.  What matters is not a particular contents but the form - or
> as they say in the media business - not what to think but how to think
> about it.
>
> Wojtek
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Alan Rudy <alan.rudy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Because genetic determinist sociobiology is horsepoop.  Did you look
> Fowler
> > up? He claims to have discovered three genes influence voting behavior
> > (tying them to serotonin and dopamine systems), to have found that
> decisions
> > to vote, egalitarianism, cooperation and altruism are heritable, and the
> > social networks have meaningfully (if not totally) genetic foundations
> and
> > that these genetically mediated networks can be used to forecast
> epidemics.
> > This is an analysis of data from 2000 people a portion of which are
> > indicated to have DRD4 genetic subtype and a portion of those are said to
> > have lots of friends and the subset of the subset is then said to be more
> > likely to vote for liberals - an transhistorical and unchanging category
> > equal to the singular and monolithic Democratic Party agenda since we
> know
> > that young Montana Blue Dogs are exactly like old Massachusetts
> homosexuals,
> > much less Vermont ex-socialists and northern Ohio post-industrialists.
> > Yeah, this is a BRILLIANT study, all of us should accept it at face
> value.
> > Not a single variable could be dubiously operationalized in the
> slightest.
> >
> > In re: the DRD4 gene: does the following suggest anything about how
> Fowler
> > might be thinking about the "liberal" gene? From wikipedia - "As with
> > other dopamine
> > receptor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_receptor> subtypes,
> > the D4receptor is activated by the
> > neurotransmitter <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter>
> > dopamine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine>.
> > It is linked to many neurological and psychiatric conditions including
> > schizophrenia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia>, Parkinsons
> > disease <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinsons_disease>, bipolar
> > disorder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder>,
> > addictive behaviors including sex
> > addiction<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_addiction>,
> > and eating disorders <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorders>
> such as
> > anorexia nervosa <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa>,
> bulimia
> > nervosa <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulimia_nervosa> and binge
> > eating<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge_eating>.
> > It has also been linked with novelty
> > seeking<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking>and
> > liberalism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism>
> > [2]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_receptor_D4#cite_note-drd4liberalism-1
> >.
> > It is a target for drugs which treat
> > schizophrenia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia>and Parkinson
> > disease <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson_disease>."
> >
> > Last, go here: http://www.world-science.net/ and tell me that the huge
> > percentage of biologically determined social phenomena - plus the lack of
> an
> > About Us or Who We Are page - doesn't raise flags.
> >
> > If he were dead, Dick Lewontin'd be rolling over in his grave to see
> lefties
> > embracing this pile of hooey.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How can you be so sure that something does not exist?
> >>
> >> Wojtek
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Eubulides <autoplectic at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> This confirms my long held belief that a rational discussion between
> >> >> liberals and conservatives is pointless, because cognitive frames
> used
> >> >> to form each point of view (or "motivated cognition" in psychological
> >> >> parlance) are a priori determinants of how information is being
> >> >> processed - i.e. deciding what is relevant and what is not and how
> the
> >> >> relevant information is arranged and interpreted.  Therefore, any
> >> >> information obtained in a discussion will be either deemed irrelevant
> >> >> by the other side or interpreted in a manner that is consistent with
> >> >> his own cognitive framework.  This is especially true of
> conservatives
> >> >> who tend to be more cognitively rigid than liberals.
> >> >
> >> > ==============
> >> >
> >> > There are no a priori determinants of how information is processed.
> >> >
> >> > Ian
> >> >
> >> > ___________________________________
> >> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >> >
> >>
> >> ___________________________________
> >> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *********************************************************
> > Alan P. Rudy
> > Dept. Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work
> > Central Michigan University
> > 124 Anspach Hall
> > Mt Pleasant, MI 48858
> > 517-881-6319
> > ___________________________________
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
>
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>

-- 
*********************************************************
Alan P. Rudy
Dept. Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work
Central Michigan University
124 Anspach Hall
Mt Pleasant, MI 48858
517-881-6319