[lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence

[Carrol Cox]

Angelus's last paragraph is central: that unfairness also is an expression
of _contmpt_ for those who should be regarded as comrades; it is the other
side of the con from "experts" who want the masses to follow their advice
without bickering about it. Both show contempt for workers, and both lead to
disunity. But my earlier point about "what is" remains. We have to build a
movement carrying that extra load of vandals & experts. In some conditions
either or both can be 'gathered in,' but usually they both are loose cannon
we have to live with.

Carrol

-----Original Message-----
From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
On Behalf Of Angelus Novus
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 5:22 PM
To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org; lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org; lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence

Michael Smith wrote:


> Any upheaval is going to attract window-breakers. Seen in that light, the
appearance of window-breakers is a sign of the Occupiers' success.

These two sentences are correct.


> Whether in fact they help or hinder the movement isn't actually so easy to
answer -- though the answer clearly seems so self-evident to so many of us. 

WTF?  Violence isn't something our side does.  Violence is what the other
side commits against us.  Lenin and Trotsky didn't grasp the storming of the
winter palace as an act of violence; it was a necessary act of self-defense
to protect the democratically legitimated soviets.

Now, to be clear, I think violence is something committed against people. 
As such, I think it's really bad.  Smashing bank windows isn't violence, but
it is douchebag behavior.  

Also, it's just terribly vanguardist.  Michael, after the revolution, a
tribunal is going to force you to read some Hal Draper and August Nimitz. 
Black bloc dipshits are acting outside of democratic legitimacy.  It's not
fair to the people who don't want their heads staved in by police
nightsticks.

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