This will undisgust you:
> "Here" is LBO talk, not OWS. And OWS is global.
>
> And why this fetish of "demands." There certainly is value in
> discussing
> demands; there is no point whatever at this point in "making demands."
> And
> there is even less point to the endless carping over programmatic
> minutiae
> on this list.
>
> I'm getting thoroughly disgusted.
>
> Carrol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> On Behalf Of Michael Pollak
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:55 AM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] those demands? forget about 'em!
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Julio Huato wrote:
>
>> If the Left, the consciously socialist caucus of the workers'
>> movement,
>> wants to advance, then it needs to engage each given popular
>> eruption --
>> and that is what OWS is -- in its own terms, respect its inner
>> dynamics....Work to expand the movement *within* the movement,
>> respecting its ways
>
> This is exactly what is going on here. There's seems to be some
> misconception that the Demands Group is a bunch of outsiders. It is
> not.
> This is a argument within the occupy wall street movement.
>
> The Demands Group is a working group just like other working group.
> This
> evening I spent 3 hours in the park taking part in their meeting, and
> I
> can attest, it was run scrupulously according to consensus procedures
> under experienced facilitators. And frankly it was one of the most
> satisfying consensus meetings I've taken part in. There were 60
> people,
> there were heated disagreements, the proposals and counterproposals
> were
> modified so that they visibly came closer together while retaining
> what
> emerged as their respective most crucial points. And while each
> individual proposal was defeated or unable to get off the ground by
> itself, the final joint/modified proposal passed by a modified
> consensus,
> i.e., 75%. And it was a consensus in the real sense of the term. It
> was
> strongly supported. The opposed sides had come together. The final
> product was only possible because both sides had convinced each other
> that
> they would carry out their side of the bargain in good faith. And you
> could feel that everyone involved was palpably chuffed at the end.
> Tired, wired and cold, but chuffed.
>
> The basic upshot is that there will be tons of liasing in the next few
> days with other occupation working groups and with community groups;
> there
> will also be teach-ins at Zucotti Park and canvassing there; we will
> encourage representatives of all these groups to join us for our
> meeting
> on Thursday with their proposed amendments or concerns or questions
> (or
> support for the proposal at it stands -- also an option); everyone
> present
> at the Thursday meeting will vote on amendments to the proposal that
> grow
> out of this liasing; and we will present the amended proposal to the
> general assembly on Sunday at 7pm, where it will be argued at length,
> amended as the GA sees fit, and voted on, according to consensus
> rules.
> (Important aside: switching to modified consensus when you can't
> attain
> full consensus, and having this identified as three quarters approval
> (and
> not a person less, seems clearly already SOP in many OWS working
> groups.
> It is not a new innovation invented by the Demands Group.)
>
> The OWS General Assembly has never been made up simply of people who
> sleep
> in the park. The General Assembly has always explicitly been made out
> of
> whoever shows up for the meeting that day. This is part of its
> anarchist
> nature, and part of the whole idea of a prefigurative experience:
> anyone
> is free to take part and be transformed through transforming. (And it
> is
> just as much a part of working groups. In the Demands Group tonight,
> three quarters of the people there hadn't been to prior meetings, but
> everyone had full voting, talking and blocking rights.) The Demands
> Group
> today contained 24/7 occupiers; people who sleep at home but
> participate
> daily; up through people who were energized to participate for the
> first
> time tonight precisely because the ideas of demands in general or
> these
> particular demands excited them.
>
> So this isn't an outsider group operating by principles foreign to it.
> This is the occupation operating by its own principles. It is a
> discussion and argument within the occupation.
>
> And BTW, if anyone feels like a visit to OWS anytime soon, Sunday at
> 7pm
> would be a great time.
>
> Michael
>
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