[lbo-talk] the "principles of solidarity"

Tayssir John Gabbour tjg at pentaside.org
Mon Sep 26 16:22:18 PDT 2011


On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> To phrase it differently, any political or social system that
> constantly requires extraordinary effort from ordinary people is not
> sustainable in a long run.  Capitalism requires the opposite (consume
> and leave the rest to us) and that explains, in large part, its
> successful spread despite it obvious failures.

There seems to be a few biases here, that we should be careful about:

* Focussing on consumption when criticizing capitalism, rather than

production. (Dissatisfied consumer vs. frustrated producer.)

* Decisionmaking is real effort, not working-class labor.

* Not noticing there's immense efforts to maintain the status quo

(huge incarceration, etc). If there's immense efforts to defend the

status quo, there's probably immense efforts to attack it.

* Not considering that more democracy may increase people's free

time. (As it has with the 40 hour workweek.)

All the best,

Tj

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert: "  Additionally, I think that deliberative democracy, through its
> difficulties and demands, is an extraordinarily productive
> epistemological device.  It really demands that you think differently
> about processes of discussion and debate, about one's relationship to
> forms of collectivity.  When one first enters into these processes,
> there is frequently a lot of discomfort, but I think that can be made
> productive, both at the individual and the collective effort."
>
> [WS:] Agreed.  But it also extremely time and effort demanding, which
> makes it unsustainable in a long run.  People need to go on with their
> lives, not just spend all their time deliberating - especially issues
> that are prone to the free rider effect.  That is why there not that
> many historical societies where deliberative democracy survived for an
> extended period of time.
>
> To phrase it differently, any political or social system that
> constantly requires extraordinary effort from ordinary people is not
> sustainable in a long run.  Capitalism requires the opposite (consume
> and leave the rest to us) and that explains, in large part, its
> successful spread despite it obvious failures.
>
> Alan: "The mere fact that he can imagine deliberative democracy in
> academic settings, and nowhere else"
>
> [WS:]  So where are those societies where deliberative democracy is or
> historically has been thriving?  Please do tell.
>
> Wojtek
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>



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