On 9/27/2011 4:32 PM, Gar Lipow wrote:
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 1:29 PM, c b [quoted Cox]:
The most horrible slump conceivable would not, in itself, be any threat to capitalist production relations. - Carrol
Gar: I think this is a case where you are being far too optimistic, as in the "it won't fall without being pushed trope." While it is quite true that capitalism won't fall without being pushed in a way that leads to anything better, or even to anything only a little worse, it is quite possible in for capitalism to fall due to the causing the extinction of the human race, or a catastrophe that leads to the great die-off Derek Jensen cheers for. The social relation that followed even the latter would be unlikely to be capitalism, but would be unlikely to be anything very pleasant either.
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Carrol: I can't argue with this. But those (and they are numerous) who cite the troubles of the economy in a tone of triumph are not claiming anything like this: they tend to equate the "fall" of capitalism with some version of socialism. It seems to me that here yu are merely dotting the t'i's, crossing the t's, & filling in the blanks of Luxemburg's Socialism or Barbarism. My recent quotation from Heb Fox points in this direction. Time seems to be running out.
I see the various posts on this list that point out this or that horrible event or condition in u.s. or world capitalism as having a sinister sub-text: they indicate that the sender does not understand capitalism, does not recognize in fact that it (unlike all other social formations, is a SYSTEM. Hence they have to continually shore up their political opinions with more empirical evidence that things are bad.
I seriously believe that the break-up of the world into feudal regions would be preferable to the continuation of the best imaginable state of capitalism. That at least would offer some remote chance of a human future. Capitalism doe snot.
Carrol
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