On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:40:55 -0400, Jim Farmelant <farmelantj at juno.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:05:16 -0400 indigo at ymail.com writes:
>> Yes; the human demand for freedom and human demand for equality are
>>
>> inherently at odds. The libertarians say the same, then interpret
>> freedom
>> as strictly the freedom of the individual. Communism focuses on the
>>
>> freedom of the collective. In this way communists make an
>> additional
>> demand that libertarians don't: the demand for justice.
>
> I would suggest that Isaiah Berlin's distinction betwee negative
> liberty - that is the absence of coercion, or freedom from, and
> positive liberty - freedom as self-mastery or self-realization,
> or the freedom to, is of some relevance here. Berlin himself
> by and large rejected positive liberty as a social ideal, instead
> opting for negative liberty, to be balanced by the competing social
> ideal of equality. However, I think that the Marxist tradition
> instead has largely insisted upon embracing both negative
> libery and positive liberty. Libertarians, of course, opt
> just for negative liberty, and reject both positive liberty
> and equality as social ideals.
>
>
> Jim Farmelant
> http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant
> www.foxymath.com
> Learn or Review Basic Math
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:55:00 -0400, Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Attacks on inequality are, it seems, a crucial element in
>> political
>> > agitation. But lets be clear. At least from a Marxist perspective,
>> the
>> > demand for equality is quite false. And the formula for communist
>>
>> > society
>> > does _not_ imply equality; in fact it is a call for inequality:
>> >
>> >> From each according to his [her] ability:
>> >
>> > In other words, humans are unequal in their ability, and it is
>> wrong to
>> > call
>> > for anyone to provide more than his/her abilities provide.
>> >
>> > To each according to his [her] needs.
>> >
>> > Humans do not have equal needs; many need much more than others.
>> That
>> > need
>> > should be satisfied. Again, communist society is a fundamentally
>> unequal
>> > society.
>> >
>> > The aim of communist society is human freedom, and human freedom
>> (however
>> > defined) is in contradiction to the demand for equality. We demand
>> much
>> > more
>> > medical care for the ill than for the well. That is only one
>> example.
>> >
>> > And I think that even for agitational purposes it would be well to
>> get
>> > away
>> > as much as possible from attacks on inequality and put more
>> emphasis on
>> > the
>> > constraints on human freedom built into capitalist relations of
>> > production.
>> >
>> > Carrol
>> >
>> > P.S. And in politics, of course, we demand very unequal effort
>> from
>> > various
>> > sectors of the population or from particular comrades. For
>> example, we do
>> > not place political demands on children nor on parents. That is why
>> the
>> > suggestion that students should refuse to take the tests
>> associated with
>> > No
>> > Child Left Behind is such an outrageous suggestion. Individual
>> students
>> > and
>> > individual parents must not be asked to stick their necks out. The
>>
>> > political
>> > burden of attacking NCLB must be born by others.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___________________________________
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>>
>>
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