Joanna
----- Original Message ----- Shag: I don't think Carrol is advocating a hair shirt conception of socialism.
Definitely not; rather I'm only saying it will be _different_, and anyone on this list, plunged into _any_ different social order, would not like it. I suspect a serf from medieval France, plunged into a prosperous suburb of today would wail, "I want to go home." Back in the '80s a refugee from Guatemala spoke here. (He was brought here by a Mennonite who translated for him.) He was living in reasonably comfortable surroundings here (leaving aside danger from Immigration authorities) and the conditions from which he had escaped were pretty horrible from his own description of them. But about 30 minutes into the talk he broke down in tears: he wanted to go home. Change, even when it is for the better, is almost always painful.
Very few attempts to predict the future, even often the immediate future, have been correct. But seeing the present as plunged into barbarism requires no crystal ball. I _think_ that Marx was probably correct in seeing real human history as beginning with the overcoming of capitalist relations. Our descendants, if they're lucky, will know.
Carrol
Third Post Today
___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk