In reference to Marx and Marxism, the philosopher Allen Wood has argued that for Marx, moral principles like justice cannot be applied to modes of production or historical epochs as a whole. Hence, according to Wood, for Marx it made no sense to complain that capitalism is unjust or immoral, although it would still make sense to speak of the morality of practices within a given mode of production, such as the assertion that theft is immoral.
Richard W. Miller in his book, *Analyzing Marx* argued that Marxism does not attempt to apply what moral philosophers would call the "moral point of view" to social systems like capitalism. So therefore while for Miller, Marxism does make normative judgments concerning social practices and institutions, it does not necessarily make moral judgments. The distinction between moral judgments and other kinds of normative judgments has been long a fixture of certain strands of analytical moral philosophy such as reflected in the work of philosophers like Paul W. Taylor, Kai Nielsen, Kurt Baier etc. So likewise, it may be the case thatwhile Marx and Marxists do make various sorts of normative judgments concerning capitalism and other social systems, they are not necessarily making moral judgments.
Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant http://www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math
---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Carrol Cox" <cbcox at ilstu.edu> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Switching Sides Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 07:38:38 -0500
:-) I was wondering when Carl would weigh in. I tend to agree with Ian of
course, but (leaving the Marxology to one side), Carl is not subject to the
response that fits others defending an ethical judgment: their ethics are
goundless -- Carl has ground to stand on (or at least can make that claim).
But isn't your Aristotle filtered through Aquinas & Dante?
Carrol
-----Original Message----- From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org] On Behalf Of Carl G. Estabrook Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 9:00 PM To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Switching Sides
Difficulties in recognizing the moral objections to capitalism arise only for those misled by Kant's ethics.
For Marx, the classical scholar, ethics were Aristotelian.
'Il maestro di color che sanno' was primarily interested in giving an account of physical change, but he would have recognized the best attempt to date to account for social change.
--CGE
On Apr 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Carrol Cox wrote:
> The fundamental 'objection' to capitalism is NOT a moral objection.
> There
> are no grounds on which one can base a moral judgment. The
> proposition that
> exploitation is morally wrong merely sets up an infinite regress.
> Why is
> exploitation wrong? And so forth. One can never find that
> Archimedean point!
> Moral condemnation of capitalism is just another version of "Stop
> the World!
> I want to get off." You can't.
>
> Moralists who claim to be Marxist should read the 4th chapter of
> Ollman's
> _Alienation_.
>
> Carrol
> Overposting for the first time in many weeks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> ]
> On Behalf Of ken hanly
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Switching Sides
>
> I doubt that there is any normal condition of capitalism except that
> workers are exploited.. At present many workers in developing
> countries are
> able to increase consumption at least, and in some countries state
> policies
> even encourage this while in developed capitalist countries the
> situation is
> the reverse with wages, pensions, the social safety net etc. being
> cut. as
> austerity policies are imposed ostensibly to reduce deficits. In the
> period
> of expansion after the second world war you refer to no doubt it was
> only
> the developed countries in which there was a growth of the welfare
> state and
> worker power but this was in part at least due to the exploitation and
> austerity in the third world which provided cheap raw materials and
> other
> products.
>
> Cheers, ken
>
>
> Blog: http://kenthink7.blogspot.com/index.html
> Blog: http://kencan7.blogspot.com/index.html
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 8:44:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Switching Sides
>
> I still believe that change is on the whole evil -- unless absolutely
> necessary. It is necessary for human survival to destroy
> capitalism. And
> this is relevant to the debate over austerity. Austerity is the NORMAL
> condition of capitalism, violated for a short time after WW2. Normal
> processes of change ("Progress") after 1970 returned capitalism to its
> normal state. How did that quote from Benjamin go, re stopping the
> train
> we're on?
>
> Once when Marx had returned to England from a vacation in Germany
> where his
> aristocratic friends had wined & dined him, someone pointed out to
> him that
> that would not be possible under socialism. His reply: I'll be dead
> by then.
> It seems to me that Marx was a conservative in the sense defined
> above.
>
> Carrol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> ]
> On Behalf Of Michael Pollak
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:58 AM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Switching Sides
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Jim Farmelant wrote:
>>
>> Well, the esteemed moderator of this also moved from the right to the
> left.
>
> Actually, since he was a precocious high school Marxist, Doug
> performed
> the extremely rare "left-right-left B4 UR 20" maneuver.
>
> Apropos Ismail's original question, I think Michael Lind probably also
> belongs in list of right to left conversions. Although, like most of
> them, still kind of a weird hybrid afterwards.
>
> Michael
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