[lbo-talk] Graeber

shag carpet bomb shag at cleandraws.com
Sun Mar 17 06:19:53 PDT 2013


At 01:16 PM 3/13/2013, // ravi wrote:
>On Mar 13, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [WS:] Good point. I think it is more acceptable in Europe to openly
> > express xenophobic and racist ideas in public, but at the same time
> > there seem to be less of de facto segregation i.e. people more eager
> > to interact with other ethnic groups on a personal basis. In the US,
> > by contrast, you will see more political correctness in the public
> > appearances, only a redneck would use a racist slur in public, while
> > more "respectable" folk would use much more veiled language. However,
> > they tend to fraternize only with their own kind on a personal basis.
> >
>
>Exactly. This is one of the things I meant by saying non-white people have
>multiple criteria to juggle. Do I want to live in a nation where racial
>tolerance is achieved via isolation or one where I might be called names
>(which has occurred in the USA as well) and might even face violence, but
>get richer opportunities for cultural and social interaction? Note also
>that this question is different for a non-white person in the USA
>considering immigration to Europe than it is for an African refugee.
>
>My admittedly small point is that just as white Americans can discount
>racism because it does not apply to them, non-white Americans can weight
>racism (in the West), rather than treating it as a binary switch ("litmus
>test"), because it always applies to them.
>
>And then, of course, London has real Indian food.
>
> —ravi

Do Indians have pre-conceived ideas about this before they make a choice? Among the folks I know, there wasn't much knowledge about what to expect in that regard. And, in fact, there was some surprise. Not complete surprise, but some, about the racism they experienced in the u.s.

Of course, I can only relate what my hand full of friends tell me, so I'm curious as to how representative this is or if it's just my friends at work.

In becoming friends with folks at work, it is usually pointed out that the thing that has bothered them most about the u.s. is the isolation. Almost everyone has said that, upon arrival, they often felt that they could have died in their hotel room and no American with whom they worked would have known for days. The idea that every individual goes out to lunch on their own: *weird*. That we often get to work and leave with nary a word to cube mates about our comings and goings: weird. What? No "hi" and "Good bye"?

It is not so much, they say, that they feel that anyone is treated this way because of prejudice, but that we are all fucking weird in the u.s. because we all go home and keep to ourselves after work, keep to ourselves during lunches and breaks. As one friend who spent a lot of time contracting said everyone is treated this way: full time workers don't invite contractors or newbie employees out to lunch, they don't check in to make sure you're comfortable, no one thinks to help you find things, no one says hello or goodbye. (this is true to my experience as well. there is perfunctory conversation but yes, I could die in my hotel room over the weekend and no one at the contract site would know.)

Now, the racism issue as I've observed it, is complicated - at least among my group of friends. They are all prejudiced about blacks in the u.s. simply due to western media exposure. And there is, of course, colorism which, at least among my male friends, gets discussed openly when talking about marriage prospects. IOW, when they prepare to start the process of meeting a woman through family arrangements, there has been open talk about whether they make good husbands: good job, handsome, light-skinned. At least among the men with whom I've discussed these things, these issues are discussed bluntly. (I don't know if this is normal or because they have felt fine discussing it with me? ) But these things get discussed openly because how you rate as a marriage pattern determines your prospects among the women your family presents you with. V loves to tell the story of his brother who thought he had it made: good job, light-skinned, handsome. He would have his pick of brides. Lucky man! He didn't think anyone would turn him down. But the first one he selected did say no. He retreated back to the u.s. and was depressed for months!

But back to the race issue. Even though there are prejudices against blacks, the prejudices don't seem to be bound up into emotions, feelings, and even their sense of bodily integrity. (This, at least to my observation, doesn't extend to people who are Chinese where there has been open animosity, mocking ridicule, and anger expressed during interactions - and even a tendency to remain physically separate and stand offish.

There was a horrible incident once, where I almost had to walk out of a job, on principle, where a fellow contractor, a Puerto Rican woman, launched into a diatribe at my Indian co-worker for using the term "zed" instead of "z". She started ranting about how he needed to learn English god damn it. she also started in on his greasy hair. For this, she ended up getting cold-shouldered by the half of the team that wasn't black. The black folks on the team aligned with xenophobic. But then, two days later, the team lead and Sr programmer, both from India, engaged in racist mockery of Chinese programmers: mocking their language, slanting their eyes. I was so shocked that it could happen so soon afterward that I literally couldn't speak. )

One thing of interest, to me, during Obama's 2008 election. It was that there was a kind of shock that Obama was doing well, a kind of shock that a black man should have a chance at becoming president. When I asked, it was because the idea that black people were of inferior status was still stuck in their head. Something troubling and odd about handing over the role to someone who really wasn't from the right social strata to take on the position.

But at the same time, there was a kind of hope that he should become president and that, when he did, it said something about the United States, about people, and, in turn, it said something about their own prospects as Indians and, thus, people of color in the u.s.



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