[lbo-talk] What class is it?

Wojtek S wsoko52 at gmail.com
Sat Oct 5 07:39:45 PDT 2013


Bill: "Actual economic class status is a concrete thing. If you own the means of production You own something objectively real. If you don't, no amount of wishful thinking changes that. The capitalist and working class exist independently of any subjective political consciousness."

[WS:] I fundamentally disagree. Ownership of things do not determine objective interests of human beings, except maybe in a very trivial way, like if I drive a car it is in my interest that it does not crash.

Interests are very complex things involving a great deal of selective choices. Ditto for social group/class membership. If you want to believe in the old marxist narrative - that is your right to an opinion, but I find that belief unsuitable to my purposes, which is explaining behavior. That old marxist narrative may make people feel certain way, but it does not explain much. End of story.

I also think that your narrative of the development of the collective security arrangements aka welfare state is rather limited and inconsistent with the vast literature on the subject. The poorhouse is prehistory when the dinosaurs roamed the earth ;). Much happened since then, and it is well documented in the literature. You may want to read Esping-Andersen, Skocpol or Heclo on the subject, if you do not have more interesting things to do ;)

Again, I think you are falling for the old communist trope that the social democracy and welfare state are the worst enemies of the working class. I know better than that - I think that the communist working class paradise in which the working class was supposed to own the means of production did not work that well for the working class - in fact far worse than the Western European welfare state.

-- Wojtek

"An anarchist is a neoliberal without money."



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