[lbo-talk] Reuters on the Biden-Ukraine connection

socialismorbarbarism socialismorbarbarism at gmail.com
Thu Dec 31 11:31:09 PST 2015


"On the methodological point, I was merely trying to bring into sharp relief the gulf that exists between assuming that political actors are “trying to influence outcomes” (which is obvious and trivial) and assuming that they “orchestrate outcomes” (which is paranoiac, Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion fantasy). And I think that distinction does indeed align very closely, at least in adults, to the difference between sanity and madness."

Surely there's a middle point: Political actors try to influence outcomes, and are sometimes successful. Unless your unstated corollary is "but they always fail to influence outcomes."

Agreed, using the word "orchestrate" does not necessarily match the known facts; a country that has its policies orchestrated by by a foreign power has a term that describes this dynamic--"puppet government." I don't see that the recent Ukraine government rises (descends?) to this description--although of course the US *has* installed what can be accurately termed puppet governments in countries at other times in its history. But lack of such orchestration does not remove US policy as a possible important causal factor in Ukraine's present situation.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:37 PM, MM <marxmail00 at gmail.com> wrote:


> > On Dec 29, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to see the substance of this post restated without
> reference (explicit or implicit) to anyone's "derangement." As written it
> meshes together two quite separate subject matters: (a) U.S.-Nato policy
> and (b) the source of error regarding such policy. As a result neither
> subject is clear.
>
> My point was entirely methodological - not intended at all to suggest a
> specific reading of Nato's policy orientation to Ukraine, which is in any
> case: (1) neither static nor homogeneous (i.e., internally contested and
> subject to change over time, based on a host of factors); and (2) of
> considerably less interest or importance than what working class Ukrainians
> and their allies want, think and do. So, to make that concrete, I think
> it’s more important for people trying to live a commitment to emancipatory
> politics to follow, for instance, http://ukrainesolidaritycampaign.org/,
> than mainstream news reports about Biden’s telephone calls.
>
> On the methodological point, I was merely trying to bring into sharp
> relief the gulf that exists between assuming that political actors are
> “trying to influence outcomes” (which is obvious and trivial) and assuming
> that they “orchestrate outcomes” (which is paranoiac,
> Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion fantasy). And I think that distinction does
> indeed align very closely, at least in adults, to the difference between
> sanity and madness.
>
>
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk



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