My barber is the
>leader of the local Black Muslim community (in fact he founded it), he
>knows that I hold his religion to be equally false with christianity,
we
>chat amicably about the crimes of imperialism and ignore quite happily
the
>differences between us.
That's kinda cool, Carrol
>hallucinating a left that never existed outside the fevered
imaginations
>of the Wall Street Journal or Time Life, rant and rave about how
>hypothetical leftists are bigots because they simply insist that part
of
>the duty of the left is to tell the truth, and part of telling the
truth
>is making it clear that religion is a serious barrier to human
survival.
I seriously agree with you here, Carrol. It is a very difficult contradiction we are discussing in this thread. I for one, one of the militant atheists in this discussion, do not see a quick and easy way to start voicing this truth. There has been tremendous pressure on the left not to get into debates on religion and really theology. And we have caved to it. We have been opportunist, but it was not just opportunist but caring about the religious feelings of the masses of people. There is heartlessness in criticizing the heart of a heartless condition.
So, it is ruthless and it is sectarian. But in my opinion we have to break new tactical ground . I know you are not sanguine about new ideas; this is just a tactical shift, not a reverse revelation. And frankly I propose it hypothetically, as an experiment. I know the lefts approach of the "urgency of marxist and christian dialogue" as my friend Prof. Aptheker terms it in his book title, is not working. The effect of religious ideology overall is to play a major role in undermining revolutionary consciousness, and it is winning. It is not
>
>Which has NOTHING TO DO with practical decisions on how to write the
>leaflet for a boycott or what speakers to have at an anti-war rally or
the
>necessity for leftists to treat people like humans, something that
>leftists as a whole are a hell of a lot better at than most Christians.
This is what I was getting at in an exchange with Max, whom I will be replying by and by. We non-believer political activists are not turning off religious left, right or center people by acting biggotted toward their religiosity. That is a false problem in the effort to win more people, religious people to revolutionary struggle. Although, some intensely Christian people still take on a phony victim status, as if they were still Daniel in the lions' den. You know, they have to make a sacrifice, so they imagine they are being perseceuted, when this a lot closer to a Christian nation than any other type of national worldview. Surely not atheist nation.
>LBO-talk is a maillist, not a local coalition trying to plan daily
>activity, and to confuse the two simply makes discourse impossible.
>
Yes, there are few places that it is possible to speak frankly as an atheist, or where it is of interest. It may be that it is not possible or the best tactic to agitate regarding philosophy and religion, but I can't see enough of the working class acquiring the critical thinking and self-authority necessary for taking state and economy power with the Christian or quasi-Christian worldviews so dominant.
wail on
>and on about what horrible people all other leftists are. If you want
to
>wallow in self-hate and self-pity, do so.
Well, I'd say no don't wallow in them, but you are right about the left self-hate problem. I mentioned self-redbaiting before. There is the problem of Marxists who are fall into skepticism about major parts of Marx, Engels and Lenin's ideas. Then they run around arrogantly slandering other Marxists as not being critical in thinking. Marx, Engels and Lenin's existent work has more critical thinking for TODAY than most of the neo-skeptics alive now. What I'm saying is a version of one of your major themes on these lists - the Golden Fleece of original thinking. But actually, Marxism is a method for deriving fresh thought for today. The thing is that new ideas are not developed continuously or predominantly, only intermittently and rarely, like revolutions.
Well
>
>If you are working with people in prison, talk about it
I agree with this. How do people on e-mail fail to recognize that vast majority of my life is with workers, and I am politically hyperactive. I practice my theory more just about anybody else I see. So, I kind of laugh if somebody thinks they are more in the actual struggle than me. E-mail is a newly highly theoretical mode than can serve practice, saving the world.
Actually, I have been agitating atheism among very working class, very religious everyday friends of mine. It hasn't worked. But nobody thinks I am oppressing them or bigotted. They still respect me, we still cool and everything.
You remind
>me of someone worrying about what kind of cake frosting to put on a
>birthday cake when they are out of flour and the nearest grain mill is
a
>100 walking miles away.
I didn't quite get the metaphor.
Comradely,
Charles
>
>
>
>>
>> Carrol Cox wrote:
>>
>> > Yoshie, Probably you and I together have read more on all varieties
of
>> > religion than this reactionary dreams exist. Obviously he and
others like
>> > him won't be there when things get rough,
>>
>> When things get rough? Where are you talking from? I work with people
in prisons
>> and I am working in the southwest to stop Intel from sucking NM dry.
It's just like
>> the elite socialist sect to set itself up as the Messiah and then
cast slurs at
>> anyone else who really works with the poor and dispossessed.
>>
>> > they will be off in a corner
>> > weeping about why couldn't we get Ralph Reed on our side. I think
we
>> > should simply begin to ignore the idiots who can't tell the
difference
>> > between hard coalition work with all that can be united
>>
>> Funny, that so open-minded a person can only call someone who opposes
her views an
>> idiot and only think of Ralph Reed as a Christian? Ever heard of
Oscar Romero,
>> Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King? Yes, all Christians--no doubt idiots
from your way
>> of thinking. Why don't you come out of your ivory tower and spend
some time with
>> people who have real lives and real tragedies?
>>
>> Why can't socialists of your ilk think of something more imaginitive
and creative
>> than trite sophisms when discussing religion?
>>
>> chuck miller
>>
>>
>
>
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