Though I really need to spare my time by now, I feel compelled to clarify the issues in order to eliminate whatever confusions and doubts that by chance remain about the PT (Workers Party) standing and about mine too. I deeply regret once more the messages sent by Emílio (my Workers Party mate), which have caused a hostile thread by Alessandro Coricelli, Enzo Michelangeli and Wojtek (see below). I agree with them, excepting Wojtek's uniform reference to nationalism, for the reasons that I will explain after November, 16.
Excuses ************* Besides being rough and unpleasant, Emilio's assertions are surely not those of a Marxist, but rather a sort of nationalist-populist twaddle. In short: an open way to fascism, however an unconscious one. Believe me: his behaviour in the PT discussion list has been different. Despite of the permanent internal struggle within the party between its left-wing and its right-wing, the whole of PT --the Workers Party would surely not endorse the words of Emilio. He will certainly beg your political pardon, your amnesty.
As I'm going to disclose below, if Emilio's silly words are to be taken at their face value, one MUST conclude that Brazil and Argentina either, as well as myself, are "much closer to Mussolini than" him (I have some ancestors in Sardinia).
The Italian mood against fascism in World War II *********************************************************** The most prevailing mood of the Italian people towards fascism is pretty illustrated by a story that I heard from a colonel who fought in the Brazilian Army in Italy during World War II. He said that the Italian soldiers were the worst soldiers in the world when they were obligated to fight side by side with the nazis, since their only thought seemed to be how to surrender to the allies or how to escape from battles. Nevertheless, those same Italian soldiers become the best ones in the world when they had to fight against the nazis. In this latter case the colonel was referring to the guerrillas (partigiani), of course.
Furthermore, the Italian people didn't hide their preferences when allied troops entered both the small villages and the big cities. Fascists should fear Italians much more than the enemy. By the way, this was the fate of Mussolini.
Italy is a country very close to Argentina and Brazil ************************************************************ I must make Emilio remembers that Italy is a country very close to South America, specially to Brazil and Argentina. Since the independence days, the Italian immigrational current was greater in both countries than those currents coming from other areas, even from the Iberian peninsula.
The language spoken in the two main regions of South America (São Paulo and Buenos Aires) is Italian-accented, since the largest Italian communities in America, including their descendants, are in the South and not in the North.
Even a peoples' invention that everywhere is so local as slang is, notwithstanding this, common to Argentina (lunfardo) and Brazil (giria) in a fair extent, because both of them have been influenced by the same Italian dialects.
Italians have been playing a progressive political role here ******************************************************************** All the federal representatives which were elected by PT --the Workers Party in São Paulo on last October, 5th., are from Italian stock, but one, and there are several others elsewhere. The powerful MST (the landless movement, the main peasants' one, at the left of PT) originated from the Italian settlements in Southern Brazil. His main leader, the red J. Pedro Stedile, came from there. Some of the best known heros fallen in the fight against the military dictatorship were also from Italian proletarian stock, as Lamarca, Marighella, etc.
As to the political participation of the "oriundi" within the progressive forces, I must also make Emilio remembers that the nest of PT -- the Workers Party is the Metalworkers Union of São Paulo. Its newspaper is till today named "I Metalurgici" (the metalworkers, in Italian), from the days when the Italian language was needed to reach the proletariat. Do you remember, Emilio, that the historical files of the Brazilian proletarian parties and of the main trade unions (the Leuenroth files) were saved from fascist destruction thanks to the old ties between the Brazilian workers' organizations and the Italian ones? (they were fled in secrecy to Italy during the military dictatorship).
I think that I must also remember to Emilio the biography of Giuseppe Garibaldi, "the hero of the two worlds". Why two worlds? America (Brazil) and Europe (Italy). Garibaldi is the national hero of Italy and a national hero in Brazil. His wife, Anita, was born in Laguna, Santa Catarina, Brazil and also is a national heroine.
By the way, the most complete electoral victory of the left wing of our party, PT --the Workers Party, was winned in the state of Rio Grande do Sul, where the republican and revolutionary tradition of Garibaldi (also the name of a city over there) is deeply rooted since the past centrury. The flag of the state is the "farroupliha" flag, the same under which Garibaldi fought in Brazil.
Is a conclusion needed? ***************************** Since Emilio likes cinema as much as Louis Proyect does, I must remember him that the best Brazilian film in the latest five years ("Quatrilho") deals with the Italian immigration and was even indicated to the Oscar.
By another side, let's remember a dramatic moment in "Il Conformista" when Gian-Maria Volontè (in the role of a fascist agent) tells to Dominique Sanda (who plays the role of the victim's daughter), having both of them fallen in love and needing to fly from the Greek-like tragedy: "--Let's escape to Brazil ! I have many friends over there..." I saw this picture in Buenos Aires and in a second time in Rio de Janeiro: in both places the public laughed a lot in such a dramatic moment. It is needless to say why...
The conclusion? Fascism is very close to all of us, as long as the capitalist society exists. Be aware of this plague!
Partigiano, porta me via! In solidarity, Roberto
1848 / 1998: Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch !
Paix entre nous, guerre aux tyrans (....) Ouvriers, paysans, nous sommes Le grand PARTI DES TRAVAILLEURS. (L' Internationale)
########################################### From: "Enzo Michelangeli" <em at who.net> Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back to HELL ! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:58:27 +0800 Reply-To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
I started writing this message three or four times, but then I decided that Emilio's post is self-commenting. I won't waste any more list resources with replies to this social-nationalist.
Enzo
-----Original Message----- From: emilio <emilio at openlink.com.br> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 12:25 AM Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back to HELL !
At 16:28 31/10/98 +0800, you wrote:
>>And why should an amnesty negotiated
>>in Chile be binding for Spain?
>>Whith socialists like this, who needs fascists.
>>Enzo
>**********************************
It is very difficult to explain negotiations and agreements for a person who doesn't have the minimum knowledge of South America politic scenery like you.
Who signs *" Michelangeli"* is much closer of Mussoline than me.
Did you forget where *El Dulce* came from ?.
Be calm , Signore Enzo, the facism will always have an Italian's label .
You really are one more *European Useful Innocent*, a humam robot well administered as mass of maneuver by *pink wave* false prophets.
emilio
##################################### From: "Enzo Michelangeli" <em at who.net> Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back to HELL ! Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:28:43 +0800 Reply-To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
-----Original Message----- From: emilio <emilio at openlink.com.br> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back to HELL ! [...]
> I am not worried with Pinochet's destiny but with the consequences
> against the Chilean people
Why should the Chilean people suffer if a murderer is tried by another country for crimes against the citizens of that country? And why should an amnesty negotiated in Chile be binding for Spain?
> I appeal for your great sense of justice, for your latinity, for your
"Latinity"?!? Mussolini would be proud of you.
> dignity and intelligence which I learned to appreciate.
>I dare to invite you help me to defend the State of the Right and not to
> succumb to the disgusting nowsday fashion liberalism.
With socialists like this, who needs fascists.
Enzo (disgusting, or disgusted, classical liberal)
######################################
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:11:47 -0500 From: alessandro.coricelli at snet.net (Alessandro Coricelli) Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back to HELL ! Reply-To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
>At 16:28 31/10/98 +0800, you wrote:
>>And why should an amnesty negotiated
>>in Chile be binding for Spain?
>>Whith socialists like this, who needs fascists.
>>Enzo
>**********************************
>
Emilio :
>
>It is very difficult to explain negotiations and agreements for a person
>who doesn't have the minimum knowledge of South America politic
>scenery like you.
>
>Who signs *" Michelangeli"* is much closer of Mussoline than me.
>
>Did you forget where *El Dulce* came from ?.
>
>Be calm , Signore Enzo, the facism will always have an Italian's label .
look, I'm fed up with your idiotic nationalism (which you call "latinity"). Before it was a first name (Tom), now a last name. Labeling you as a fascist is automatic, at this point. What about Luis Sepulveda or Ines Bussi (Allende's niece), aren't they enough "south american". They, among others, are pushing for the extradition of Pinochet to Spain. They, among many others, are building up a mass movement (in Europe, so what?) to do so. Can we disagree with you and Fidel Castro on this issue ? I'd like to remind you that our generation (in Italy and in Europe in general) was pretty much needed in the fall of 1973 to provide asilum to the ones who suffered from Pinochet's atrocities. Where were you and what have you done?
Alessandro
Alessandro Coricelli tel(203)457-2065 fax (203)457-0508
######################################## From: sokol at jhu.edu Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:32:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back where you once belong ! Reply-To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
At 11:15 PM 10/28/98 -0200, emilio wrote:
>General Pinochet obtained his first juridical victory against his prison in
>England.
>
>He will go back to Chile soon !
>
>He can only be tried for his crimes against humanity by the Chilean
>people who have borne the brunt of his fascist attacks.
>
>The game now is: Chilean Sovereignty 1 x 0 Labor Party Hypocrisy!
--- snip ---
Nationalism is an amazing beast. It puts radicals and fascists to bed together as soon as a threat to "national sovereignty" appears on the horizon.
That is one reason why I think that socialism and "national liberation" should not mix - for if they do, they form a truly explosive mixture known as "national socialism."
Any comments?
Wojtek
>If you bet in Mr. Robin Cook's "bla-bla-bla", YOU LOST !
>Why not to collect of the Chilean Immigrants (they are not political exiles
>) that protest in front of the clinic ( only to BBC and CNN tv-cameras, of
>course), the US$ 600.000,00 of medical care bill which English Government
>will have to pay?
>Hypocrisy makes the world goes around !
>Sorry " Manhattan Socialists", but I also wish to notice you one more thing:
> "* LAS MALVINAS SON ARGENTINAS *".
>emilio
#########################################
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:50:01 -0200
From: emilio <emilio at openlink.com.br>
Subject: Re: Pinochet, get back where you once belong !
Reply-To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
At 10:32 29/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>for if they do, they form a truly explosive
>mixture known
>as "national socialism."
*****************
Mr.Wojtek
I am not facist or radical.
I am just an Latin American without money in my pocket.
During the last ten years many countries of South America fight to maintain its fragile democratic governments after have for many years lived under military dictatorships.
Government's subject in Chile is very delicate and Chile went the last country to get the transition among the Military Dictatorship for Democracy as government's form.
There was general amnesty and amnesty is worth for both sides.
We didn't need a false liberal trying to become superstar burning our deceaseds which we would prefer to maintain them buried
emilio