-----Original Message----- From: J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. <rosserjb at jmu.edu> To: pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu <pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu> Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 1:25 PM Subject: [PEN-L:5616] Re: RE: Re: How the Left repeats simplistic analogies (How the Serbs became fascists
> I don't have Nathan's email address, but I
>would urge Michael P. to express to Nathan that
>at least some of us regret his departure, despite
>our disagreements. Heck, if all the pro-bombing
>people leave the list, I'll have to make their arguments
>for them, even though I oppose the bombing, ugh!
> This is a very serious and difficult issue and
>it is understandable that people are getting worked up
>about it. There are strong arguments on each side, as
>the labels "pro-imperialist" and "pro-genocide" suggest.
>I would not like to see this list become a love-in fest for
>the anti-bomb crowd, even though there are some who
>might prefer that for the purposes of spending our time
>in figuring out "how to oppose imperialism."
> BTW, even though I am sometimes viewed as some
>kind of "voice of reason" (except when I'm not, :-)) I just
>lost it in my Principles of Economics classes today and
>ended up screaming at the top of my lungs and nearly
>breaking lecterns while denouncing the bombing. This
>thing is now out of control and has become totally
>unpredictable and very dangerous (or maybe that description
>just applies to me, :-)). The big joke is that in one section I
>got applauded by a rightwing Republican. Oh well...
> In any case, I would hope that Nathan returns and that
>we all try to be somewhat more reasonable with each other
>as we attempt to explore the evolving issues and situation
>that confronts us all, whatever our views are.
>Barkley Rosser
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bohmer, Pete <BohmerP at evergreen.edu>
>To: 'pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu' <pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu>
>Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 8:03 PM
>Subject: [PEN-L:5559] RE: Re: How the Left repeats simplistic analogies
(How
>the Serbs became fascists
>
>
>>I just sent Nathan Newman a note telling him that while I am totally
>against
>>the U.S./NATO war against Yugoslavia, the self-righteousness of some of
the
>>people on this list who are against the War and their ad-hominem attacks
>>also bothers me, e.g., a few of the many posts of Proyect and Henwood fall
>>into this category. Because of the difficulty of anti-war people in
>putting
>>forth a position that protects the rights of the Albanian Kosovans, I can
>>understand (although not agree with) why some progressive people do not
>have
>>a clear position against the U.S. war.
>>
>>I have done a fair amount of leafleting and speaking against the war since
>>March 24th and find myself continually being confronted by honest people
>>with points of view and arguments similar to what Max Sawicky and Nathan
>>Newman have been raising.
>>
>>I urge members on this list to challenge as strongly as they can the
>>arguments of members of Pen-l who support the War but to respect the
>>individual and to not attack their motives.
>>
>>Peter Bohmer
>>> ----------
>>> From: Jim Devine[SMTP:jdevine at popmail.lmu.edu]
>>> Reply To: pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:23 PM
>>> To: pen-l at galaxy.csuchico.edu
>>> Subject: [PEN-L:5542] Re: How the Left repeats simplistic analogies
>>> (How the Serbs became fascists
>>>
>>> I wrote: >>It's interesting (and sad) that the DSA seems to be reverting
>>> to
>>> its roots [i.e., of cold-war liberalism], or more correctly, to some its
>>> worst traditions. When will they ever learn?<<
>>>
>>> >My lord, the intellectual intolerance building on this issue by the
>>> "pro-Serbian genocide" forces (as opposed to us "cruise missile
>liberals")
>>> is getting quite incredible. You folks seem to refuse to deal with the
>>> fact that there are a large chunk of folks who have marched in anti-war
>>> marches for decades (or only for their short adult lifetimes) but who
>just
>>> see the alternatives in this situation differently.<
>>>
>>> Look, I am NOT (repeat: NOT) "pro-Serbian genocide" at all; I've
repeated
>>> that so many times you'd think you'd get it. You labelled yourself a
>>> "cruise missile liberal" or something like that and it seems to fit.
>Since
>>> you never have replied to my arguments against your arguments in favor
of
>>> "cruising" the Serbs, I assume you have no reasonable reply except
>>> emotional cant about "'we' had to do _something_ about Kosovo/a" (as in
>>> the
>>> YDSA position paper). Instead, you respond in an ad hominem style with
>>> accusations of "intellectual intolerance."
>>>
>>> I am not responsible for what Milosevic or the Serbian government or the
>>> Serbs as a whole do, since I don't pay taxes to them and they don't act
>in
>>> my name. On the other hand, the US government takes my taxes and blows
>>> people away again and again. And as I've argued again and again -- and
>>> you've ignored and ignored -- the US/NATO is not making things better in
>>> Serbia, Kosova/o, Montenegro, Macedonia, or Albania. They are f*cking
>>> things up much more. It doesn't make sense tactically, strategically,
>>> politically, or morally.
>>>
>>> As for the "large chunk of folks who have marched in anti-war marches
for
>>> decades" before deciding that imperialism was great, it's important to
>>> remember that the folks who turned the old SP-USA into a pro-war force
in
>>> the late 1960s and early 1970s _also_ had their credentials as
activists.
>>> And also that just because someone has credentials doesn't
automatically
>>> mean that they're right (or that people without credentials are
>>> automatically wrong). In my book, they have to present reasoned
arguments
>>> rather than resting on their laurels. (This biz reminds me of those
>people
>>> who act superior because _they_ were at Woodstock.)
>>>
>>> >You don't have to agree with those who support intervention but this
>>> wholesale excommunication of everyone who disagrees with you from the
>Left
>>> is sectarian in the worst sense of the word.<
>>>
>>> There have been no excommunications while I've been participating in
this
>>> debate on pen-l. I presented reasoned responses to your "NATO is the
best
>>> we've got" argument and you didn't reply. Period.
>>>
>>> >I am starting to find pen-l as intellectually narrow as
freerepublic.com
>>> (with pretty damn similar rhetoric) in the complete refusal to
>>> respectfully
>>> engage with those you disagree with.<
>>>
>>> So _you_ are excommunicating us. Further, I _engaged_ with you and you
>>> _ignored_ it.
>>>
>>> >To just dismiss this division on the Left as a reversion to Cold War
>>> liberalism is just intellectually simplistic. It may be the old folks
>>> living the last war (Vietnam in this case), who are resurrecting the
>worst
>>> sectarian traditions of division and intolerance of yesteryear.<
>>>
>>> Having caught only the last, cynical, tail of the anti-war movement I
>>> can't
>>> say that I am nostalgic for those days. Never having been a sectarian
>(and
>>> having actually belonged to the SP-USA, DSOC, and the New American
>>> Movement), I don't know who you are talking to here. (Maybe to Louis,
but
>>> I'm not Louis. If anyone, it's Max who looks like Louis.)
>>>
>>> I am, on the other hand, old (47). Maybe it leads to flatulence (to
quote
>>> one of your insults) but it also gives me a sense of history. I know
that
>>> when the YDSA embraces cruise missiles they are repeating mistakes
>similar
>>> to those made in the past. I know that those who don't learn from
history
>>> are bound to repeat its mistakes.
>>>
>>> Jim Devine jdevine at lmumail.lmu.edu &
>>> http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/jdevine.html
>>>
>>
>>
>
>