Now now, Henry, don't go taking this personally. I said the argument was silly, not you. Look, I understand that there is a great deal of anger right now among Chinese about this. It is fully justified. Barkley Rosser -----Original Message----- From: Henry C.K. Liu <hliu at mindspring.com> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: Re: NATO bombs Chinese embassy
>I guess I am silly.
>
>"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
>
>> Henry,
>> I realize that the Chinese media is loudly
>> trumpeting the rejection of Clinton's apology by
>> the Chinese government and is claiming that it
>> was not a mistake. But that is no reason for you
>> to repeat such silly stuff. This was obviously an
>> incredibly stupid thing to do, considerably stupider
>> even than starting the bloody war in the first place.
>> This morning's Washington Post presents the
>> issue as follows. Supposedly the Chinese embassy
>> was located in a different part of Belgrade until just
>> a few years ago. It physically resembles the building
>> that was the supposed target. It is on the same street
>> and only about a block away. It has a low-lying building
>> behind it that resembles a warehouse that was thought
>> to be a storage area as well.
>> None of this justifies this unjustified bombing, none
>> of which is justified in my mind anyway. But it is also
>> pretty clear that this was a blunder. Despite the word
>> "Intelligence" in its title, there is no guarantee that the
>> CIA is all that intelligent or competent or able to avoid
>> errors.
>> BTW, the map actually came from the National Imaging
>> and Mapping Agency, NIMA, although it was drawn from
>> a map originally provided by the CIA and not updated.
>> Also, further evidence of the total incompetence here
>> is that US diplomats had actually visited this embassy,
>> attending receptions there. But, there is no reason to
>> believe that bombing targets are passed by diplomats
>> before being acted on. There is a lot of bungling and
>> incompetence out there and it should not be dismissed.
>> Barkley Rosser
>> PS: I am personally affected by this latest development
>> as a professor from Beijing Normal University is supposed
>> to be visiting in my department next year to work with me.
>> His application for a US visa is currently sitting in the US
>> embassy in Beijing where I don't think that it is getting acted
>> on very quickly......
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henry C.K. Liu <hliu at mindspring.com>
>> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com>
>> Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 6:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: NATO bombs Chinese embassy
>>
>> >
>> >As for American explanation on the embassy attack as a identification
>> error,
>> >it is totally without credibility.
>> >US/NATO has been bragging about the bombing effectiveness with
>> statistically
>> >low "collateral" damage. They have been bragging about the reliability
of
>> >their target lists.
>> >In addition to claims of surgical precision, US/NATO has also declared
the
>> >firm policy of wanting to avoid the spread of the "war".
>> >The embassy of a major power is an important facility so that it is
>> >unbelievable that US/NATO would not have an off limits target map
listing
>> >all the embassies before the start of the bombing campaign. It would be
>> >standard operating procedure.
>> >It appears more likely that anti-China forces in the US government and
>> >military, especially in the CIA, purposely mislead NATO military command
>> >into attacking the Chinese embassy to create an incident that would put
the
>> >Chinese government (as well as NATO and the Clinton Administration) in
>> >positions of confrontation and to
>> >create problem in domestic politics in both countries.
>> >These anti-China forces want to stop the emerging peace offensives and
hope
>> >for a Chinese veto at the UN Security Council.
>> >This is part of the anti-China pattern of alleged Chinese spying,
alleged
>> >Chinese interference in American elections, etc., etc., all done against
>> the
>> >wish of the Clinton Administration but nevertheless became major issues
in
>> >US-China relations that put the Clinton Administration on the defensive.
>> >The US government is responsible for its failure to manage US
internecine
>> >domestic politics and for its incompetence in administering its
bureaucracy
>> >and military and for allowing the anti-China elements within it to
create
>> >an incident that leads to hostile confrontation between the two
countries.
>> >This sort of incidents happened all through America history, from the
>> >assassination of Kennedy to Watergate, to the Tonga Gulf Resolution, to
all
>> >the anti-Clinton scandals.
>> >
>> >Doug posted a London press report earlier:
>> >
>> >"some specialists believe that the strike on the Chinese embassy
suddenly
>> >exposed the existence of "a special direction" in the
>> >war against Yugoslavia, which is conducted only by the United States and
>> has
>> >aims, different from those proclaimed by the NATO command.
>> >
>> >The fact that the bombing of the building was conducted by a special
>> >force of the U.S. strategic aviation, which is not subordinated to the
>> >NATO command and which flew from the American territory, confirms this
>> >supposition.
>> >
>> >Earlier, the Daily Telegraph newspaper reported, referring to military
>> >sources, that the U.S. conducts, in actual fact, two wars against
>> >Yugoslavia: The U.S. has another "closed" list of targets, along with
>> >the one submitted to NATO. Other NATO members, apart from Britain, are
not
>> >notified of these targets."
>> >
>> >Henry C.K. Liu
>> >
>> >"W. Kiernan" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello lbo-talk!
>> >>
>> >> It's impossible for me to believe that targeting a bombing strike
>> >> against the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was an accident or a
>> >> coincidence; there's just no way. My company does GPS (Global
>> >> Positioning System) surveying and aerial mapping, so I know it would
be
>> >> trivially easy for our government to have established geodetic
>> >> coordinates for map control points in Belgrade. It would be quite a
bit
>> >> harder to do so in, say Pyongyang, but not anywhere that a.) we have
an
>> >> embassy of our own, and b.) our agents can drive, unmolested, around
the
>> >> city in cars. Even off-the-shelf commercial GPS receivers would do
the
>> >> job.
>> >>
>> >> Using real-time kinematic GPS surveying, we achieve sub-decimeter
>> >> accuracy for our hydrographic work in real-time - we steer the boat
down
>> >> the planned profile lines according to the satellite signal. And the
>> >> signal you receive with a commercial GPS receiver is dithered with
>> >> digital noise, but the military has special decoders which cancel the
>> >> noise, so their GPS locations are even quicker and more accurate than
>> >> the GPS surveys my company performs.
>> >>
>> >> As far as identifying the buildings on an aerial photo or a street
map,
>> >> that should have been even easier, you don't need anything but a car,
a
>> >> map and a pencil. Hell, you can do it on foot; I have, lots of times.
>> >>
>> >> Allegedly this bombing raid was conducted with one of our gold-plated
>> >> B-2 bombers, which means that this one sortie probably cost over a
>> >> million dollars. Am I supposed to believe that the U.S. Air Force
>> >> conducted a million-dollar raid involving a two-billion-dollar bomber
>> >> and no one bothered to double check the target coordinates first?
>> >>
>> >> Maybe Clinton, Blair, Reich Marshall von Clark, etc., did not intend
to
>> >> bomb the Chinese embassy, but somebody in the data pipeline did, and
the
>> >> odds aren't bad that that someone was located in Langley, Virginia.
>> >> This incident absolutely reeks of CIA dirty trickery.
>> >>
>> >> As I would not care to participate in a new World War any time soon, I
>> >> certainly hope that the Russians will supply NATO's high command with
>> >> geodetic coordinates for their embassy as soon as possible, and I also
>> >> hope the NATO bombardiers will carefully compare them with their
target
>> >> lists. Who knows, maybe those excitement-loving boys at Langley have
>> >> listed the Russian embassy's coordinates as the location of the
Belgrade
>> >> Ammunition Works or something like that.
>> >>
>> >> Yours WDK - WKiernan at concentric.net
>> >>
>> >> Doug Henwood quoted the Times (London):
>> >> >
>> >> > WAR IN EUROPE
>> >> > Poor intelligence caused embassy attack
>> >> > CIA blamed for bomb blunder
>> >> >
>> >> > YESTERDAY Nato admitted it had bombed the Chinese embassy in
Belgrade
>> >> > after mistaking it for a Yugoslav government office. At least three
>> >> > people were killed in the attack, which threw diplomatic efforts to
>> >> > end the war into turmoil.
>> >>
>> >> Peace threat narrowly averted!
>> >>
>> >> > Alliance officials said they had believed the building was
>> >> > Yugoslavia's federal directorate of supply and procurement, which
>> >> > organises weapons imports and exports. It was hit by three 1,000lb
>> >> > precision-guided freefall weapons, thought to have been dropped by a
>> >> > B2 stealth bomber.
>> >> >
>> >> > Last night Nato diplomats were looking to General Wesley Clark, the
>> >> > supreme allied commander who now has sole authority for selecting
>> >> > targets, to take responsibility. Allied intelligence agencies,
>> >> > including the CIA, were also facing severe criticism. "It is
>> >> > absolutely incredible not even to know where the embassy of such an
>> >> > important world power is situated," one diplomat said.
>> >> >
>> >> > General Walter Jertz, Nato's military spokesman, denied that Nato
>> >> > planners had used outdated maps and said they had no reason to know
>> >> > the locations of all the embassies in Belgrade. "Particularly as we
>> >> > were not going to attack the Chinese embassy, we were not trying to
>> >> > find out where it was," he said.
>> >>
>> >> So it was a coincidence? Of all the accidental targets in the world,
>> >> the bombs just happened to fall on the Chinese embassy? Jesus, what a
>> >> load.
>> >>
>> >> > Javier Solana, Nato's secretary-general, announced a formal
>> >> > investigation, promising that the results would be made public. The
>> >> > apparently disastrous failure of Nato's intelligence prompted
>> >> > speculation that false information had come from a hostile agent,
>> >> > and compounded anger over the bombing.
>> >>
>> >> Absolutely pure unmitigated bullshit. Screw you, Solana, what kind of
>> >> idiot do you take me for? You don't get geodetic coordinates from a
guy
>> >> in a trench coat in a Belgrade alley.
>> >>
>> >> > ...President Bill Clinton offered condolences to China for "a tragic
>> >> > mistake". But Viktor Chernomyrdin, the Russian envoy trying to
>> >> > broker a peace deal, described Nato's action as "barbarism".
>> >> >
>> >> > The embassy, purpose-built for the Chinese in 1993, was hit during
>> >> > the heaviest bombardment of Belgrade in more than six weeks of
>> >> > bombing. Witnesses said two missiles struck the roof and one
>> >> > penetrated its side. Two journalists and a reporter's wife died.
>> >> > A fourth victim was reported missing. Chinese diplomats, some with
>> >> > bloodstained clothes, watched in tears as rescuers brought out 21
>> >> > injured.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jamie Shea, Nato's spokesman, described the embassy bombing as "a
>> >> > terrible accident", saying the alliance regretted the loss of life
>> >> > and injuries but would not be deflected from its campaign to destroy
>> >> > President Slobodan Milosevic's military machine...etc., etc.
>> >>
>> >> whereupon Michael Pollak wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > When you juxtapose boneheadedness like this with the excellent
>> >> > analyses coming out of Stratfor, it makes it seem like they fired
>> >> > all the good spooks. Maybe we should follow the neo-liberal recipe,
>> >> > abolish the agency, and contract the work out.
>> >>
>> >> Forget about having my company do it, pal! Fuck that. We're
>> >> self-insured, and ordinary construction work is dangerous enough as it
>> >> is. G. F. Young Inc. don't do no combat zones.
>> >
>> >
>
>