For the first time since the Vietnam war, I will vote in a major election. I will vote for a racist, sexist, Jew hating, capitalist bigot who is the only one that can stop the Global Capitalists.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Holding my nose, Joshua2
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CNN CROSSFIRE - September 6, 1999
What Party Deserves the Union Label?
BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Tonight, looking for the union label -- on this Labor Day, candidates are appealing for the support of labor unions. Who deserves it more? Democrats or Republicans?
ANNOUNCER: From Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the CROSSFIRE, Congressman Tom Davis of Virginia, chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, and Richard Trumka, secretary treasurer of the AFL-CIO.
PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
It's Labor Day, when anybody with any sense is at the beach, and everybody else is out campaigning, Democrat and Republican. GOP front-runner George W. Bush rode in Labor Day parade in South Carolina. Gary Bauer, Steve Forbes and Dan Quayle all worked the same labor crowd up in New Hampshire. And Vice President Al Gore was grand marshal for the big Labor Day parade in Des Moines, Iowa, all of which is a sure sign that labor's going to be a big player in the 2000 elections, and is, in fact, already gearing up.
The AFL-CIO reportedly plans to spend up to $46 million in 2000, supporting candidates, mostly Democrats. In 1998, only 27 Republican members of Congress received labor support. Is that fair? A lot of union members vote Republican, but are union bosses willing to support more Republicans? Or are unions, as some charge, just political subdivisions of the Democratic National Committee? Weighty questions for tonight's guests as we examine labor and politics, 2000. Mary.
MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: Well, happy Labor Day.
And we'd much rather be with you than at the beach, Mr. Trumka. Now, I am a member in good standing of the vast right-wing conspiracy. I am also...
RICHARD TRUMKA, SECRETARY TREASURER, AFL-CIO: That's good. I'm glad to finally meet you, by the way.
MATALIN: Well, and happy to be there, and also proud card- carrying member of the American Steelworkers, AFTRA, SAG, I belong to three different unions, and that is not that weird. Thirty-one percent of union members -- union households identify themselves as conservative. Somewhere between 40 percent and even higher vote for Republicans. Why, Mr. Trumka, then, in past elections, does 99 percent of union money go to support Democrats? TRUMKA: Well, first of all, only 20 percent of our members are really where you said they were. And we actually looked at that program, and at one point about two years ago, about 40 percent of our members actually voted where we thought they shouldn't be. I'm not going to name that political party.
MATALIN: That's almost half of your party voting against...
TRUMKA: But it drove our current program, because what we found out is they were voting for people who were not going to Congress and voting in their interests. So our new program is designed to issue- educate them, and give them a real informed choice so they can make a decision on Election Day on who goes to support him and who doesn't.
MATALIN: Of all the issues that all American families are concerned about, particularly union households are interested in and do support tax cuts. Seventy percent of union members supported the across the board 10 percent tax cut, which is no more, yet you oppose it. They also obviously must support policies that promote job creation, not the kind of policies Democrat support. Those are the two biggest issues for union families.
TRUMKA: Well, first of all, they don't support tax cuts when it's going to destroy Social Security, Medicare and other groups. And they tell us, whenever they talk to us, we wish that that Congress up there would spend a little less time bickering with each other and more time figure out ways to keep jobs here, to keep -- develop good trade policies that help us with manufacturing. They also don't think it's a very fair tax cut when 70 percent of it goes to the top 10 percent. That's not a blue collar friendly tax plan. That's a country club tax plan.
PRESS: Congressman Davis, welcome to the show, by the way.
REP. THOMAS DAVIS (R-VA), CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE: The tax plan is totally misrepresented. You have been reading that AFL-CIO material. That's not what's in the tax...
TRUMKA: I helped develop that, Tom.
DAVIS: Listen, we're ending the marriage penalty in this. We have some -- some of your pension plans are better protected, and we don't touch the Social Security trust fund. It is protected in a lock-box.
TRUMKA: Over 70 percent of the tax cut that you talked about goes to the top 10 percent.
DAVIS: That's because they pay 70 percent of taxes, today.
TRUMKA: That's not a worker friendly plan.
DAVIS: But that's because they pay 70 percent of the taxes today. We're giving it back to the people.
TRUMKA: They don't.
PRESS: Let's start back -- let's start back at the top. I've got to say, I'm embarrassed I only belong to two labor unions, but I'm proud to belong to two, and I wish I belonged to three.
TRUMKA: So am I, Bill. We'll change that after tonight.
PRESS: But Congressman, look, there are all of these complaints, and you just heard from Mary, that labor's too partisan. You know, I know labor well. I've worked with them a long time. I find them very pragmatic. Their methodology is this: Here are our issues. You support us on our issues, we support you. You oppose us on our issues, we oppose you. What's wrong with that?
DAVIS: Because some of their issues don't have anything to do with working people. Last time they -- let me just say -- they rated the impeachment of the president as a labor issue. They rated, also, in their voting, the census. Now tell me what the census has to do...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMKA: You should be happy, because it helped your voting record.
DAVIS: How this -- it's about the only one I was right on.
TRUMKA: It is, though...
DAVIS: But on the -- on the census issue, they side with the Democratic leadership on that. How is that working person's issues? They're a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party.
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: Yes, and I'm sure you can. Don't you think, just as it's up to the business community to define what's good for business, it's up to the Sierra Club to define what's good for the environment, for example...
DAVIS: It's up to the voluntary organizations.
PRESS: ... it's up to labor, not to the Republican Congressional leader, to decide what's good for labor, correct?
DAVIS: But you have to understand that labor, in many cases, people are forced to join unions as a condition of their job. If you're a member of the Sierra Club, it's a voluntary action. If you invest in corporation, it's a voluntary action. Labor's different, and they take those dollars, and then the leaders, at that point, have their own agenda. So it's not really grass roots.
PRESS: That's not the issue. The issue is that labor says, here are our issues. Here are the ones we believe in. That's certainly their right.
DAVIS: Certainly. PRESS: And so my question then, isn't it easy -- it seems to be the route is easy. If you want more Republicans to get more labor support in the year 2000, then the easy way to do it is to vote yes on those labor issues right? Bingo.
DAVIS: When the labor issues are the census, when it's impeachment, when they rate issues that have nothing to do with working people, I think you have to...
PRESS: If the census, then -- you keep coming back to that -- of the census is going to -- is going to amount to, as labor believes, in the under counting of millions and millions of minority members and working men and women in this country, why isn't that an important issue for working men and women?
DAVIS: It doesn't do that. But -- it's a zero-sum gain. It doesn't under count labor members at all. What it does is it may under count people in Democratic reapportionment area, where you have Mayor Daley's brother putting up cyberpeople, which is what the current proposal is, it helps the Democrats. That's the problem.
TRUMKA: Tom, we're not talking about it helping work -- I mean, union people or not. We care about working people, and whether working people get a true representation. And if it excludes people of color, if it excludes people that are here, then it's a bad issue for working Americans
DAVIS: Well, nobody's for excluding anybody, but what they're trying to do here...
TRUMKA: ... see the issue...
DAVIS: But what you're trying...
(AUDIO GAP)
TRUMKA: ... outspends us 11 to one, Tom. That's a lot...
DAVIS: Corporate America -- corporate America gives to both parties. Labor is 99 percent Democrat. That's -- I mean. that's a huge difference.
PRESS: I want to come back -- I want to come back to those fact figures. Congressman, in 1994, when Republicans took control of the -- of the House, Grover Norquist, close adviser to then House Speaker Newt Gingrich, quoted as saying about labor -- quote -- "We're going to crush labor as a political entity and ultimately break the unions." And when Grover Norquist spoke, people knew he was speaking for Newt Gingrich. Is that still the Republican agenda?
DAVIS: He wasn't speaking for me, and he wasn't speaking for the vast majority of Republicans or Democrats. I think unions have an appropriate place and presence in American politics.
TRUMKA: It's important. DAVIS: We're not out to crush anybody. Richard and I have talked about that. So I don't think he was speaking for that. And if you look at the votes, they can't deliver on it.
PRESS: But most recently, when this 46 million story came out of Miami, I think is where it came out of -- that story -- the wire story, was taped to the chairs of Republicans members on the House floor, with a little note signed by Congressman Tom Davis. And that note said: "In case you missed it, Republican members, 46 million reasons to stick together. Our opponents aren't sitting still, and we can't either."
It sounds like you're declaring war on labor.
DAVIS: Not at all, but we are letting them know that there are huge assets out there that are taken from working men and women's dues that are being used or for political purposes, most of which are going to be going to defeat these members. And they need to wake up to that fact. And that's good politics.
TRUMKA: Tom, let me go back to the money for a second and Grover Norquist. Paycheck deception you guys put up in 32 states, California and 32 other states, as Grover Norquist said, to crush us politically and to break unions. Now that is a plank in the Republican Party. It's tough for us to go to our members and say we want to give money to the Republican Party when you have a national right to work law and you have paycheck deception as a plank in your national party.
If you really want working people to gather around and support you -- and it's fortunate to this effect -- and I do want to add this part -- it's fortunate that many members in the Republican Party did not subscribe to that notion of breaking unions. I mean, I have a lot of friends in the Republican Party, and -- and they were sort of outraged by that. So it's tough for to us say we want to do this. And they say, but they're trying to crush us and silence our voice in the political arena.
DAVIS: Yes, you have a lot of planks and party platforms both ways, and it has nothing to do with the congressional agendas. And I think that's very, very clear.
TRUMKA: So are you saying party planks are useless?
DAVIS: Party planks are talking things for delegates, but they have never been the launching -- linchpin for administrations.
TRUMKA: The Contract...
DAVIS: All I'm saying...
TRUMKA: The Contract on America was. Newt's program was.
DAVIS: Well, yes...
MATALIN: The Contract on America. DAVIS: ... because members signed that. But that's not a party platform by unelected -- they're elected delegates but not by congressmen and senators.
PRESS: At the risk of a compliment here, I've been impressed with your stewardship so far of the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee in that you have talked about reaching out to other constituents, not taking anybody for granted either way and trying to get more Republicans elected.
DAVIS: Sure.
PRESS: And I think that means a more open attitude toward labor, as I've heard you express. My question is do you really think you can turn the Republican Party around in that attitude toward labor?
DAVIS: I think in our attitude toward a lot of different groups we're turning it around at this point. And we're finding that our message of individual empowerment versus government centralization, all the decisions coming out of Washington, resonates with labor members, it resonates with non-union members, it represents a philosophy I think that most Americans subscribe to, minorities, everyone else.
TRUMKA: We would die and go to heaven when we can get a majority of Democrats and Republicans both supporting our issues.
PRESS: Fat city, right?
TRUMKA: Oh, man. It would be a labor day of all labor days.
MATALIN: Well, boys, we're all just working stiffs here.
And when we come back, we'll ask Richard Trumka if the presidential candidates are going to win his support in 2000?
Stay with us on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATALIN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're celebrating Labor Day, the kickoff to campaign 2000 with a labor and political leader, secretary treasurer of the AFL-CIO, Richard Trumka, and chairman of the Republican Congressional Committee, Congressman Tom Davis of Virginia -- Bill.
PRESS: Congressman Davis, every election time, the labor lobbyists that I know are always looking for Republicans they can support because they don't want the media to slam them for being all hundred percent or 99 percent Democratic. So here's a congressman from Virginia who comes along and says I'd like your support. My name is Congressman Tom Davis. We pull out this little paper, lifetime voting record for the AFL-CIO, Tom Davis, 19 percent. Why should labor support you? DAVIS: Well, actually, I raised a lot of labor money last time from individual unions, some of them unaffiliated with the AFL-CIO leadership, federal employee groups in particular. They've been very supportive as I've been supportive of them. And they have looked that, AFL-CIO leadership.
But let's go to how those ratings are done. They're rating issues from impeachment to the census that have nothing to do with working people, I think, in the minds of most Americans. The census issue, just to get back to it a minute, was a party-line vote with a couple exceptions on each side. Party-line votes over how you -- it's a strictly political deal, and the AFL-CIO, instead of sitting it out sided with their parent company, the Democratic Campaign Committee.
TRUMKA: Well, I think that shows exactly how pragmatic we are. He's right. We do have a couple of unions that support him.
DAVIS: I have about 15.
TRUMKA: Tom supports them so they support him. But we represent all of the unions, and when the vote was taken they said 19 percent doesn't quite make it.
PRESS: But you mentioned -- you keep coming back to the census issue, and Rich mentioned the paycheck protection, or paycheck -- you called it the deception issue...
TRUMKA: Deception, yes.
PRESS: ... which I think that was the most important issue for labor unions last year because it really got to their ability to participate in the political process. As Rich mentioned, in 32 states, including California, that was put on there, a direct attack, an attempt to kill the unions. Wasn't that a mistake on the part of Republicans, looking at what happened in 1998?
DAVIS: Well, you didn't get the result that happened. It certainly energized a part of the Democratic base in California.
PRESS: Right.
DAVIS: Although they put it on in a primary, which is a little bit different scenario. It got them an agenda up, and in retrospect you can look at it and say maybe it wasn't done correctly. I don't think it's gone, I think we're going to see more of it. And it doesn't stop unions from participating...
TRUMKA: Yes it does.
DAVIS: ... they can still give PAC contributions -- you can give PAC contributions from your members the way corporations do. But what happened in California...
TRUMKA: You want to do -- you want to do -- you want to do real campaign reform? Do McCain-Feingold. That's real. We support that.
DAVIS: Because it leaves labor alone and it hits the Republican voter base.
TRUMKA: No, it doesn't. It gets us with all the corporations.
DAVIS: It gets rid of all soft money...
TRUMKA: It takes soft money off the table. Let's get rid of all soft money.
DAVIS: But it doesn't -- your voter registration activities, the people you're putting on the street, it doesn't touch them. And that's where you're most effective.
TRUMKA: Those are constitutional rights, Tom. You don't want us to stop trying register people. That's good for democracy.
DAVIS: The bottom line is...
TRUMKA: The more people that participate, the better democracy is.
DAVIS: With union dues. With union dues, and that's what you're doing.
TRUMKA: You give me some money and I'll represent...
MATALIN: Which are compulsory. I -- you know...
DAVIS: Which go basically just for Democrats when you look at it, or 99 percent for Democrats. And that's the deal.
TRUMKA: And here's, once again...
DAVIS: And it doesn't -- it isn't even disclosed on any campaign form.
TRUMKA: And here's again what we use the money for...
DAVIS: No wonder you want campaign finance reform.
TRUMKA: None of it...
DAVIS: You're left alone.
TRUMKA: None of it...
DAVIS: Corporate America -- I'm sorry.
TRUMKA: None of it goes to a party, and none of the money that we're going to spend goes to a candidate. The money that we're going to spend that you talked about will go to register voters, to educate them on the issues and mobilize them to get them out on Election Day, so that they participate in the democratic process.
PRESS: God bless America.
TRUMKA: What's wrong with that? PRESS: That's it.
DAVIS: And the education -- the education is in sync on the -- from the census to impeachment on down to the Democratic agenda.
TRUMKA: No, it isn't. You can work with us...
MATALIN: All right -- all right, Mr. Trumka...
TRUMKA: ... and we're glad you did it so we can get some good issues.
MATALIN: ... to square this circle, then, if you're -- it is issues that drive you and mobilized your people, not party affiliation, why, if there is any labor litmus issues, it is NAFTA and GATT? The two presidential -- Democratic presidential contenders both oppose -- I mean both support NAFTA and free trade, which you oppose. But how likely is it that you're going to endorse Pat Buchanan, who's the only candidate, I believe, in the race, who's with you on NAFTA? You're going to endorse Gore or Bradley.
DAVIS: And fast-track...
TRUMKA: First of all, let me tell you how we get to that endorsement, first. But you're right. Pat is a protectionist. What we would like to see is fair trade, not free trade.
And remember, you're right. That was passed, and Bill Bradley and Al Gore are wrong on that issue and so are every one of the Republican candidates. And we're working hard to change that.
Here's how we're going to endorse people this year. We have asked every one of our affiliates to go back to their membership, do polls, surveys, have meetings, and talk about who you want to endorse. And when that process comes in, their presidents will allow us to know whom they want to support.
Probably it will be Al Gore or Bill Bradley. Now, of those two, I would say it would be Al Gore of the two. However, it is because the rank and file told us that.
MATALIN: So you're saying that if a rank-and-file -- if a local union came back and said, we're for Pat Buchanan, you would let the local...
TRUMKA: No. There -- it'll be a two-thirds vote.
MATALIN: A majority thing.
TRUMKA: No, a two-thirds vote. It'll be a supermajority. If two-thirds of the people said endorse Pat Buchanan, Pat's our candidate, and I'd be out there on the campaign trail endorsing him and supporting...
MATALIN: Well, this -- this would be a millennial election.
DAVIS: Our polling shows George W. beats Al Gore among union members nationwide right now head-to-head. So...
TRUMKA: Just as soon as we let them now that George is for national right to work law, that George is for paycheck deception...
DAVIS: ... which they don't care about.
TRUMKA: They do care about. They know that it lowers wages, because in every right to work state you've got lower wages than in the non-right to work states. It -- just as soon as they find out that he tried to raid the teachers pension fund to give a tax cut to the break (ph), let them decide. Our job is to give them the facts and let them decide anyway they want to.
DAVIS: The reality -- we're in the information economy, and the old paradigm where labor was representing the working man really has no -- very little applicability in that. And I think we have to understand that the wage base now in a lot of right-to-work states, not because of unions or not unions, but...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMKA: Well, if you're in a union...
DAVIS: ... information economy.
TRUMKA: ... you earn 32 percent more than nonunion worker. That's fact. If you're a woman and you're a union member, you earn 39 percent more. If you're an African-American, you get 45 percent more. And if you're a Latino, you get 54 percent more if you join the union.
DAVIS: Not in Northern Virginia.
MATALIN: And there are fewer union jobs because of this -- these costs that aren't commensurate with market forces.
TRUMKA: Well, then why aren't there fewer CEO jobs, Mary? They're getting 10.6 million a year. They're off-the-charts everywhere. Why aren't there fewer of those?
MATALIN: Because they're creating jobs. They are creating thousands of jobs.
TRUMKA: Well, wait a second. You can't have it both ways. If they're creating jobs...
PRESS: Almost out of time. You guys keep talking about 2000 as if it's just Bush and Gore, forgetting that there's this big elephant that may be jump in here -- in fact, former elephant named Pat Buchanan. Maybe former elephant named Pat Buchanan, may jump in here as a Reform Party candidate.
If he does -- I mean, I saw all of those Teamster trucks out there in Ames, Iowa. I've seen Pat's labor support. I've heard his message.
If he's on the ticket as a Reform Party candidate, doesn't he pull the blue- collar labor votes that George Bush might get from the Republican Party into the Reform Party?
DAVIS: He pulls a lot of them, and he pulls a lot of Democratic votes too. He has a very interesting coalition. I think he helps us at the coalition level -- and I've said this before -- by being on the ballot, but he hurts our presidential candidate. And he pulls from a very eclectic group.
PRESS: All right. We've got -- we'll see what's going to happen. Gentlemen, thanks for coming in on this holiday.
DAVIS: Thank you.
TRUMKA: Thank you.
PRESS: Tom Davis, it's good to have you here, Congressman Davis.
TRUMKA: Happy Labor Day.
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: ... Trumka, great to see you again.
Mary Matalin and I will wrap it up with closing comments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PRESS: You know, Mary, if you look at Peter King up in New York, you look at Al D'Amato, even Pete Wilson in California, as conservative as he is, got labor support. The support is out there, but unions practice the No. 1 rule in politics. Right? You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. And that's the way it goes, and there's nothing wrong with it.
MATALIN: You know what? I am pro-union. I am totally pro- union. But I'm also pro-progress. I am. You can't stop globalization anymore than you can stop computers or all the technology that they used to say was going to lose union jobs. Unions should be on the side of the workers for policies that create jobs...
PRESS: They are. They are.
MATALIN: Those are free-enterprise, market-force, market-driven jobs.
PRESS: Well, global trade, you and I agree, and we both disagree with the unions. But when it comes to minimum wage, when it comes to livable wage, when it comes to striker replacement, to paycheck protection, the Republicans are against it.
MATALIN: They'll lose jobs.
PRESS: No, it's not. It's pro-labor. From the left, on labor, I'm Bill Press. Good-night for CROSSFIRE.
MATALIN: And from the right, I'm Mary Matalin. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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