geek

jeradonah jeradonah at flashmail.com
Mon Sep 18 13:18:55 PDT 2000


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:31:11 -0400, kelley <kwalker2 at gte.net> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but that's not my open-source dick, its my "I'm better than
>> all those ankle-biters" dick. Just about any "expert" in a field
>> waves that dick around.
>
> just an example of precisely what i'm getting at wrt a claim, in
> general, that the social relations of work involved in
> coding/programming/hacking/whatever are somehow about some special
> ethos that makes it, well, special and the next new thing and this
> could be revolutionary d00d.

yet the "social relations of work" are changing, aren't they? *you* get paid for *knowledge,* not your expertise. your degree didn't mean squat for your getting your job or getting your raise...

but i don't think that is "revolutionary," either...


> chiding my lefty colleagues for getting so excited about it.

why?


> dickslinging here, i'm arguing, is simply part of a wider cultural
> process that has little to do with men and everything to do with
> power.

well, the power *had* shifted. and *you* are taking advantage of it. people who can think for themselves, think critically and think quickly can take advantage of this. people who can't get left behind. and there are a lot of people being left behind.

nothing says that *women* have to be confined to the latter...


> (yes, i was being hyperbolic, not unlike the man you
> worship, in order to get a little action going!). i am arguing
> that, in some ways, sharing code, collectively working on
> projects, and making it freely available is a form of 'check out
> how great i am and how great we are for being different and
> against the grain" dick slinging.

it would be interesting for you to back that up...


> futhermore, "name dropping" isn't necessarily done to impress. it
> is also a norm of science in general, to properly credit the
> source of your ideas.

no more than "project dropping" gives one an identity in the fsm...


> reese thoguth it was odd b/c people on dc don't share their haX0r
> knowledge with others. indeed, when a newbie asked they get
> flamed.

ya think people might be the least bit weary of "sharing" on a list they know is monitored by the fbi? that they know gets used against them by the fbi?

you apparently haven't been around for the ritual, "i am not a hax0r" disclaimers by kiddies who have had their first experience with the feds???


> now, on dc stuff if someone asks a question about "hacking" what
> happens? hmmm?
>
> they get flamed, esp if the answer is available in the first
> 50hits of a google search.
>
> why do you suppose that is? what function does such a norm
> fulfill? what purpose does it serve? why is it important enough
> to warrant the flame fests in one place and not elsewhere?

and what are you missing here? 50% of hacking is research and preparation. if someone *can't* even do a simple search, it doesn't much matter if they are told how to do the complicated stuff. they won't be successful. why waste bandwidth on the lusers???

you keep trying to fix a still basically underground culture into your studies of normative ones...


> and why do you suppose that is quickly the conclusion that several
> drew at dc.

we have already addressed this...


> it's because no one covets being an academic and so you dn't have
> groupies and scene whores. (or the use of those epithets as slurs)
> but people DO want to be part of the "scene" or, rather, become
> part of the hacking world. since there are no formal
> credentializing processes as yet to do so, there is the trial by
> fire that is engaged on lists, in irc, etc.

there is a formal credentialing process, it just isn't one that other people get to review...


> but what i'm getting at is that this was my way of entering into a
> discussion that i've been tossing ard for abt 6 months and that is
> my observations of this intense political struggle over things
> like what is a hacker?

why can't you allow people to self-identify? why are you trying to place people in a (convenient) box? is there something wrong with diversity?

ac

'''

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