punishment(was: Student Loans & Bankruptcies (was Re: creativefinancing)

[Christopher Rhoades Dÿkema]

Wojtek,
I hope, and, actually, expect, that you recognize that " the deterrent effect
of punishment" is quite complex, and that there are many people and situations
in which it doesn't apply in any way as coherent as the one you describe. Some
of what Carrol may be reacting to is the mindless belief of many Americans that
" the deterrent effect of punishment" will prevent much of the violent and
harmful antisociality that is very common in the US, much of which gets called
"crime." Obviously I recognize that "crime" gets defined in a class- and
race-discriminatory way. It is nonetheless true that much of the "crime" that
gets punished is harmful and dangerous. But the motives of the perpetrators are
often so complex, unconscious, and contradictory that mere punishment is not a
consideration on their horizon. My own work, which brings me into frequent
contact with child abusers, for example, convinces me that punishment has
little rôle in influencing them.

One curious irony, well worth discussing, is that the criminal justice system
in the US punishes people with draconian prison sentences and focuses its
efforts on those categories of antisocials who are, very arguably, least
susceptible to a cost-benefit analysis. Do we see many industrial polluters
doing time? The class bias of the criminal justice system tends to focus
punishment away from the parts of the population where it could do the most
good.

Christopher Rhoades Dÿkema

Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:


> At 07:29 PM 4/22/01 -0500, Carrol wrote:
> >Actully I've never given a thought to this question. And I presume any
> >social order takes whatever steps are necessary, under given conditions,
> >to protect itself. It is punishment, which is just a polite name for
> >revenge, that I object to. I agree with Orwell that under some
> >circumstances you can achieve good results by killing people, but if one
> >must kill, it ought not to be for such an obscene reason as punishment.
>
> Carroll, you seem to forget the deterrent effect of punishment.  In fact,
> we use negative sanctions (i.e. punishments by another name), such as
> frowning, avoidance, withdrawal of affection, spanking, slapping, etc. in
> every day interaction to deter certain forms of behavior.  Th eonly
> difference between this and the criminal justice system is that the latter
> uses a much more formalized froms of sanctions than those used in everyday
> life.
>
> We may debate whether a particular sanction deters a particuluar form of
> behaviour (an issue most frequently raised in connection with capital
> punishment or formal vs informal sanctions) - but it would be utterly naive
> to deny the pivotal role punishment plays in maintaining social norms and
> rules.
>
> wojtek