>>> debsian at pacbell.net 08/01/01 03:49PM >>>
CB>You don't want admit that because it conflicts with your idea that the
Soviet Union was an unmitigated evil.
Heh, I'll leave the, "Evil Empire, " kinda rhetoric inflation to Reagan. You missed that C.L.R. James cite, eh, Charles?
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CB: I didn't miss it. It is inaccurate. The Soviet Union was not the most violent whatever in history. The U.S. and Germany have been.
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As my years of study in the stacks of university libraries in the DK sections (history of the Soviet Union) can testify, and my friendships with more than a few ex-Communists through organizing with CofC folks and going to Veterans of the A. Lincoln Brigade dinners can attest (I know that sounds like, "Some of my best friends are...") I have more than a bit of affection for the strenious efforts to construct socialism in the fSU. Failed efforts, for a set of overdetermined reasons (cf. used in a Althusserian sense), internal and external, ideological, contextual, geo-strategic, and yes, criminal, by the some evil mofos names JVS and his allies at the heights of the Party apparatus. But, as for me thinking the whole experience was an , "unmitigated evil, " you've got the wrong character in this play. (Calling Dr. Pirandello! Or is this Ionesco?!)
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CB: So, in the context of this thread on Israel, instead of going over the whole history of the Soviet Union, did or did not the Soviet Union play the leading role in supporting the establishment of Israel ? Try to focus in on that specific point.
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Heh, like Yoshie said once on Leninist-International when citing the NYT, good info is good info. I presume, on the evidence from the past 2 yrs. I've had reading you, that you never read books that have been placed on the Vatican's, I mean the Central Committees (deliberate slip) Banned Reading List? (DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!)
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CB: Maybe you didn't read my last post. I told you I have heard and read many of the sources on the alleged failings of the Soviet Union. In other words, it is stupid for you to address me like I only read or hear about pro-Soviet claims. I'm in the U.S. remember, the center of anti-Sovietism. Get it ? The Central Committe here is of the dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, and they authorize plenty of anti-Soviet reports, including in the NYT.
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Ideologically contaminated works, weak minds will be corrupted, the masses cannot be trusted, we must register all copying machines. (Which the fSU did do. Daniel Ellsberg had his psychiatrist office broken into, in the Brezhnevite era, over there he would have been lobotomized, for copying the equivalent of the Pentagon Papers.)
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CB: You are naive if you think the U.S. has less heinous methods of mindcontrol than the SU. Maybe that's because you are a product of U.S. mind control
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CB: Do you still beat your wife ?
Honesty, Charles! No, and I don't beat my boyfriend or small dogs! I even avoid ants on the sidewalk. Cockroaches, now they're fair game! Why, even once I woke up thought the acid was so good I was Gregor Samsa and had metamorphiszed into a Cockroach. I was on the phone to the exterminators, pronto...
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CB: In other words, your question to me , which I responded to with "Do you still beat your wife ?" was in the form of the famous double question. You embedded your question to me with a question that had a false premise. I'm a lawyer so I am familiar with such objectionable crossexaminations.
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CB: The more I read you, the less I think of your ability to assess my thinking. Your mind seems to be in chaos.
Heh, James Gleick? I ouught to read him! I am a punster though as y'all see on occasion. Though, others in high school thought me so serious I was voted most likely to join a Tibetan monestary. Little did those clowns in high school know I was an atheist then...
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CB: In other words, don't come at me with assertions like "you and your ilk". Eat shit.
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CB: Consider that I grew up in the U.S., and therefore I was exposed to the normal avalanche of anti-communist and anti-Soviet propaganda, and no pro-Soviet propaganda...
Correct me if I wrong but, I sense you were formed by the Old Left, and might remember movies like, "Mission to Moscow, " during WWII and Life and Colliers Magazines lauding Uncle Joe during WWII.
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CB: Wrong. I started out a Republican , like my grandfather. I liked Ike. Then I was a Democrat like my father and mother. So, I have the whole U.S. political heritage as a critique of the Old Left. See you don't get it. My life history makes my assessment of the Cold War more balanced. I have both sides of the argument. And I got and subscribed to the anti-Soviet side first.
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CB>...You are like a parrot repeating the same thing you have heard your whole life, like most other Americans.
Heh, as the son of a US Army vet, who as a child read crap like, "None Dare Call It T(reason), " by John Stormer, 'cuz it was around the house, I've had more than a bit of exposure to RW anti-communism.
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CB: Yes, and it shows in your discussion here.
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That my critique, not all that original, of the fSU and allied social formations as being new types of class societies, throws you for such a loop, well...
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CB: No, it just makes me think that you are loopy.
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To be serious, and arrogant, I think I've read more of the various sides of the historiographical and ideological debates in Soviet studies than you.
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CB: Maybe, but you don't seem to be able to process information as well as I can. So, I get more bang for my bucks in reading.
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Tomorrow, I'll type up my list of the twenty best from Stalinists, anti-Stalinists, Cold War Liberals, Ultra-Leftists, Anarchists and the previously unheard of Nrkyajyism School of Soviet Studies. You do the same.
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CB: Why don't you hold your breath ?
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n.
CB>You have your conclusion before you even consider the facts...
Heh, show me better, less damning facts...Contrary to your impression, I'm not a permanently pre-disposed to draw the worst conclusion.
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CB: This thread is on the Israel. You haven't cited one thing on the Soviet Union and Israel.
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Ask, say Alexandre Fenelon or Justin Schwartz, who unlike you, do have minds not saturated with dogma,
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CB: My mind is full of agility and fresh thinking. You wouldn't be a good judge on minds.
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and who, esp. Alexandre, has taught me alot on areas like the Ukraine, that I'm weaker on than him. Methinks, you have made up you mind long ago,
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CB: You don't think that good.
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