On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:47:43 -0400 "Nathan Newman" <nathan at newman.org>
writes:
> In one sense, Israel has one of the most immigration policies on
> earth.
> Anyone willing to be converted by an orthodox rabbit can immigrate
> there,
> including your Palestinian friends.
Now why didn't my Palestinian friends think of that? Of course as Justin points out, conversion to Judaism is not so easily accomplished. Furthermore, Israel only recognizes conversions performed by Orthodox rabbis (Reform & Conservative rabbis don't count). And anyway, if any sizable number of Palestinians were able to find Orthodox rabbis who were willing to attest to their conversions, does Nathan seriously believe, that Israeli law would not quickly change to forestall this manuever? That reasons would not quickly be found as to why these conversions are not "kosher"?
Right now under the Law of Return, people like me and Justin, who were born of Jewish mothers can acquire Israeli citizenship if we so wish, despite the fact that we are atheists, and more importantly despite the fact that we have no organic connection with that country. Whereas, Palestinians who were born there (or whose parents were born there) cannot become Israeli citizens, with equal rights with Jewish Israelis.
>
> Most consider changing their religion too high a price for
> citizenship, but
> then Jews throughout history were forced to convert to gain full
> rights, as
> many people in Islamic societies have had to convert to gain full
> rights
> given to the majority religion.
So I guess, Nathan is arguing that just because through much of history, Jews have been pushed around by Gentiles, it is perfectly alright for Jews to have their own state where they can get to push around Gentiles. I suppose this must provide satisfaction to some folk, but the pleasure escapes me.
>But the fact is that every
> Palestianian
> could return to Israel and get citizenship if they were willing to
> convert
> to Judaism, which might be an interesting mass strategy :)
>
> In that sense, Israel is not an ethnic state - since it does not
> require
> blood ties - but an ideological state in that you must pledge
> allegiance to
> a certain set of religious beliefs in order to immigrate there.
In reality it is both an ethnic and an ideological state. Blood lines are important for qualifying for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, since Orthodox criteria of Jewishness are used as the basis for defining who is a Jew. That is why Falashas and many Russian emigrants have had a hard time there, since the Orthodox rabbinate has been reluctant to certify that these people are truly Jewish.
Jim F.
>
> But countries around the world have far more racist immigration
> rules than
> Israel, since many people would have no right to citizenship no
> matter what
> changes in beliefs they might swear to.
>
> Nathan Newman
> nathan at newman.org
> http://www.nathannewman.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
> To: <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:27 PM
> Subject: RE: The nation of jews...
>
>
>
> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Max Sawicky wrote:
>
> > They belong to Israel if they want to. Remember, it's not a
> > race/biology thing.
>
>
> Then why can't my friend Ahmed go to Israel under the Law of Return?
>
> (My friend Siobhan wants to Return, too.) --CGE
>
>
>
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