doug got at the heart of it way back at the be/g when he asked carrol what his answer to the "what is to be done" question would be had the USG done everything perfectly (from a lefty perspective) and had we known exactly who the perps were, only to be faced by an afghanistan who was unwilling to turn ObL Inc over.
if your answer is to do nothing because, in the end, the US has done far worse and, indeed, actually caused all the problems, so it has no right to demand justice from the perps, so the US casualties had to be taken: we deserved it.
for mine, this is where one should concentrate one's argument, rather than make other disingenuous arguments that appeal to other rationales against war: intolerance of any form of violence, enlightened self-interest, etc.
kelley
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I've had a form of the same argument centered around the death penalty, what is to be done with them? And, got the same response from almost the same people [working class buds], but separated out by race. What was a little surprizing in kill-the-taliban discussion was that this time it didn't separate out on race. In other words, Joe who is black is usually opposed to the death penalty in just about, but not quite all cases. Also he went to Egypt this summer and enjoyed himself a lot. We share books on the ancient epyptians, and he has been clearing up some things on my reading of the Old Testament, so I was mildly surprized by his reaction to this summary execution business.
On the other hand, one of the other guys in the shop found a hat store on Telegraph that sells those funny looking hats a lot of the Afghans wear. They are made of a heavy wool and come in black, grey and tan--their made in Pakistan. He came into the shop wearing it and looked just like one of these guys---Larry is native american-puerto rican and has a short beard.
Putting together what is really going on in reactions to WTC and the war is very complicated. It's true that many people can be turned by the wrong arguments from the right. On the other hand, I am not that interested in turning or convincing. I am more interested in figuring out a more meaningful and less manipulative way to get at the problem of perceptions. These guys are my friends, so getting down on their case over this is the wrong approach.
Gotta go to work, more later.
Chuck Grimes