..I think what is really needed are discussions of practical ways in which you can put pressure both on the American government and the Israeli government: international protests, vigils, teach ins, writing to congressmen, boycotts, even coming here and protesting alongside us (there are hundereds of Internationals in the WB and Gaza acting as witnesses, even shields...you don't know how much different the Israeli Army acts when there are joint Palestinian, Israeli, Internationals protesting together instead of just Palestinians alone...just being there can save lives, and anyway getting arrested can be fun...you get to spend time with the Gush Etzion police...)
...This is a left-wing mail group...(I believe) we all more or less agree on the general aspects of the issue enough that we can move on (insofar as we want to discuss this as a major topic here at all) to the more practical aspects of ways you can help change the facts on the ground here....presuming that potential international pressure has that ability.
Bryan Atinsky http://www.indymedia.org.il
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I keep forgetting about Indymedia, so thanks for reminding me. The crap that Brad posted or that Seth answered with---trading insults by using opposition propaganda certainly does enlighten us all.
It is obvious that virtually nothing but propaganda gets through the mainstream media filters in the US. It is really pretty disgusting and has gotten much worse, even when compared to the mid-Eighties. Take a look at the National Lawyers Guild report on the Occupied Palestinian territories and Israel (Thanks to Nathan or whoever for posting the url). I could have deduced most of this report by reading between the lines of US media and paying attention to the details in the background of news video clips---but its nice to just read without having to go to the trouble of double-think.
I stayed out of this discussion because I have nothing to contribute---other than to just log in. The current and past Israeli governments have been such militaristic pigs that I can't remember when I stopped believing anything they put out. Probably around the '67-73 wars and the subsequent occupation of WB and Gaza.
I am not sure why no one on Lbo mentioned the entire issue of occupation dates from the '67-73 era; that the occupation as far as I remember is completely illegal and that some thirty years worth of UN resolutions have been passed against it; that it has been the subject of numerous reports on human rights violations; that there is only one peace proposal worth consideration---That is, end the occupation, remove the illegal settlements, and return to the partition of East Jerusalem. Negotiations should then proceed to full citizenship rights for non-jews in Israel and reparations for confiscated land. Any other so-called peace proposal, calls for pragmatism or realism is just bullshit.
I think these positions are also more or less what the serious opposition within Israel advocates. I think that is pretty much the bottom line from Hanan Ashrawi, Noam Chomsky and Edward Said.
It's worth remembering that Ashrawi, Chomsky and Said are not radicals, but rather what I consider traditional academic liberals. That what they advocate sounds radical now or not a practical alternative, only highlights how far along into the totalitarian night we have traveled.
When Arafat and the PLO leadership conceded on just about everything that could comprise a self-determined state in Oslo for the sake of ending the armed occupation, they obviously made a profound mistake. In this double-think land, Oslo wasn't a peace process, but the means to institutionalize the occupation and make it work without the need for quite as large a standing army. The IDF have since retreated to a system of fortified settlements in urban areas, linked through roadway bypasses that effectively sliced up what was left of occupied Palestine. Maybe the PLO understood these would be the consequences of Oslo, or maybe they didn't want to see it.
In any case, the PLO concessions did inadvertently manage to unmask the Israeli government's total bad faith. So in terms of propaganda the Israelis lost their last mostly self-imagined fig leaf. Their election last fall(?) of an indicted war criminal as prime minister pretty much foreclosed even that imaginary cover.
Quibbling over the role of Zionism which only threatens to devolve into accusations of anti-Semiticism, or characterizing the conditions through historical parallels with Germany or South Africa of the past is pretty un-enlightening. Palestinian conditions are what they are. The real problem is having these conditions documented and become common knowledge---that is become the ground of debate and discussion. They are appalling enough to not need any further historical elaboration. This seems especially clear since these sorts of historical characterizations and parallels provide fuel to divert the discussion away from concrete issues of occupation and abuse of fundamental human rights.
Chuck Grimes,
I will probably regret posting this.