Carrol ======
DOCUMENT 6. Pradeep's First Post (Responding to McReynolds, June 4)
Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize Terrorism?/social fascist?
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:51:06 -0600
From: ppillai at sprint.ca
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: <davidmcr at aol.com>
> To: <asdnet at igc.topica.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize Terrorism??
> Of course the terrorism of the Palestinians is no different from that of
> the Stern Gang, of the foundes of Likkud, etc.
> It is not the Israelis who have made it impossible for
> the Palestinians to organize a "center" (though certainly they have
> tried), but the tendency of the Palestinians to substitute rhetoric
> for organization and, in the present case, suicide bombings for more
> effective actions.
>
> David McReynolds
>
Is this prick the same David McReynolds who ran as the Socialist Party canditate for pres. in the last US election by any chance?
hmm if so maybe that whole 'social fascist' label thing wasnt such a bad idea after all
-Pradeep
=========== DOCUMENT 07. Doug's Query
Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize
Terrorism?/social fascist?
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:53:31 -0400
From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
ppillai at sprint.ca wrote:
>Is this prick [CLIP -- cbc]
Huh? What's your beef with David McR? He seems like a fine fellow to me.
Doug
========== DOCUMENT 08. Carrol's response to Doug.
Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize
Terrorism?/socialfascist?
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:36:50 -0500
From: Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu>
Doug Henwood wrote:
>
> ppillai at sprint.ca wrote:
>
> >Is this prick the same David McReynolds who ran as the Socialist
> >Party canditate for
> >pres. in the last US election by any chance?
> >
> >hmm if so maybe that whole 'social fascist' label thing wasnt such a
> >bad idea after all
>
> Huh? What's your beef with David McR? He seems like a fine fellow to me.
>
Doug, read McReynolds on the Palestinian struggle, and read them forgetting everything else you know about the man. Taken by themselves, "prick" seems a mild designation for their author. He not only equates isolated Palestinian violence (including suicide bombings) with the Stern Gang but ascribes to the Palestinians a _tendency_ to terrorism. I had always thought highly of him too, but that post made me gag.
Carrol =========
DOCUMENT 09.
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize
Terrorism?/socialfascist?
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 18:34:44 -0400
From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
From: DavidMcR at aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:16:14 EDT Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize Terrorism?/socialfascist?
Ah me, always makes a man feel he is doing something right!
First, I have absolutely no idea what I wrote to suggest Palestinians had a propensity to violence - it would be a service to me if I could find out.
Second, most of the time I'm attacked as an anti-Semite for my support for the palestian people and their struggle, and my sharp criticism of Israel. However, partly because at my age one remember the Holocaust without waves of TV specials, remembers it and knows what it meant to Jews (including the guilt of some in the Jewish community in this country who knew and did little or nothing at all - fearing a wave of East European immigrants would start an anti-Semitic backlash), I am not prepared to ignore Jewish feelings about terrorism.
Third, I do indeed condemn all terrorism, even if I can understand why it is being done. The irony of my comparing the PLO actions to the Stern gang, and my suggestion that the Likkud Party has been led by "former" terrorists, or my statements that if you condemn the terrorism of the suicide bomber at least the bomber had the courage (or insanity) to die in the act, while Israeli jet planes risk nothing, but their bombing raids are absolutely as terrorist as any act by the Palestinians.
I don't like actions where old men send young men to die, whether it is that criminal. Sharon, or the religious leaders in the Palestinian community who applaud the youth who go forth to die.
So as far as I know that is what the fuss is about. As for the issue of thinking Palestinians more likely to be terrorist, I'd like the source - if I said it it means some words must have gotten left out of something I sent by email, because it isn't my view.
Best, David
<< Subj: Fwd: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize Terrorism?/socialfascist?
Date: 6/9/01 4:37:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: dhenwood at panix.com (Doug Henwood)
To: DavidMcR at aol.com (David McReynolds)
David - they're saying bad things about you on the lbo-talk list -
what are they talking about? - Doug [CLIP]
>
>Doug Henwood wrote:
>>
>> ppillai at sprint.ca wrote:
>>
[CLIP] >>
>> Huh? What's your beef with David McR? He seems like a fine fellow to me.
>>
>
>Doug, read McReynolds on the Palestinian struggle, and read them
>[CLIP]
>
>Carrol
>
>> Doug ===========
DOCUMENT 10. Pradeen's second post (Response to Doug) Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize
Terrorism?/social fascist?
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:00:47 -0600
From: ppillai at sprint.ca
>
> Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:53:31 -0400
> From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw; [ASDnet] Should Peace Movements Criticize
> Terrorism?/social fascist?
>
> ppillai at sprint.ca wrote:
>
> >Is this prick [CLIP]
>
> Huh? What's your beef with David McR? He seems like a fine fellow to
> me.
>
> Doug
>
I dont know David McR. I just read an odious (and typical)liberal/racist post on Palestinian violence and after noticing the name wondered if the person who wrote it was the same as the socialist candidate of the same name.Unfortunately it was. You know immediately after sending this I almost regretted using the word 'prick' -- *almost*. Personally I didnt know(and really didnt care) if David McR --the Socialist candidate-- is a good guy or not -- I was just curious if the 'prick' who wrote the above letter, obsessing about Palestinian violence, was one and the same person.
> Of course the terrorism of the Palestinians is no different from that of the Stern > Gang, of the foundes of Likkud, etc.
Of course it is no different. Just like the violence of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising is no different than the pogroms and violence of Germans during Kristalnacht. And both should be rightly condemned by any fair and principled leftist as I'm sure many a principled socialist did!
This, this is what comes of framing the problem of an *openly* racist colonial settler apartheid state policy of ethnic cleansing (50+ yrs now!) as simply a problem of a 'peace process'-- of Jews and Arabs learning to trust each other and get along -- ohh why cant we all just get along and learn to love each other, right? That the violence of the Stern gang -- the violence and terror of a fascist (indeed pro NAZI !) militia ideologically committed to a racialist policy of ethnic cleansing -- is to be compared to the *desperate* and isolated acts of Palestinian rage, itself a pathetic response to decades of Israeli terror ---- of rockets being shot at civilians and children throwing stones, state/private massacres of palestinian villagers, use of state sponsored death squads, routine torture and beatings for such offences as displaying the colours of the Palestinian flag, forced expulsion from ancient homes and villages, collective forms of punishment(including torture), *routine* terror at the hands of Jewish settlers -- Israeli equivalent of southern good ol' boys indulging in a bit of recreational lynching to keep the local 'Araboushim' in line -- all with the protection and often support of the Israeli authorities; forced relocation of Palestinian populations to concentration camps called refugee settlements; entire families (including children)being trucked into Israel to work the plantations of the state subsidized agricultural system and then trucked out again before dark (Israeli 'Pass' laws disallow arab workers from being in or near certain Israeli settlements after dark) etc. etc. etc. ---- in sum a terror inspired by and in no small part the product of the same *herrenvolk* ideology that underpinned the Stern; that this terror and the pathetic Palestinian response (however unproductive or even stupid at times) can be deemed morally equivalent beggars the imagination. It is absolutely astonishing that all this can and has, for the N. American left, been confined to a framework of simply being a 'conflict' betweeen Palestinians and Jews; perhaps at times even a 'tragic' conflict, yet nevertheless one with no apparent source, save perhaps for some irrational Arab/third world proclivity for violence or some defect in the Arab psyche predisposing them to "substitute rhetoric for organization" (gosh you gotta admit , *they* are always whining about something or another; at least the Beautiful Israelis are making an effort) The logical(only) solution then is of course 'peace' or the 'peace process'. Nowhere then is 'justice' to enter the equation and the timid attempts to bring it up as an issue by the near quisling PLO is just more "substituting rhetoric for organization" or perhaps even shrill propaganda for constructive effort. Maybe our comrade Socialist Party candidate is wasting his efforts on them.
Was the struggle against apartheid ever discussed in such offensive terms: of peace rather than justice? Where there ever any socialists that babbled on so stupidly about the unfortunate and tragic conflict between Germans and Jews as the pogroms against Jews began to escalate with the nazi rise to power?
After watching (at least for those of us willing to see) racist abuse and humiliation heaped upon torture, heaped upon terror, we now have to endure this invertebrate liberal righteously pontificating about the failings of the Palestinians (or equate them with those of the Israelis who of course are at least making an effort). If only the Palestinians were as beautiful as Beautiful Israelis.
I dont know comrade Socialist Party candidate David Mcreynolds. Or if he is a fine fellow as you say. I just wanted to know if he was the same guy - thats all.
-Pradeep =========
DOCUMENT 11.
Subject:"the prick McReynolds"-like crabs in a bucket . . .
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Halle <john.halle at yale.edu>
> >
> > >Is this prick the same David McReynolds [CLIP]
> >
> > Huh? What's your beef[CLIP]
> > Doug
> >
>
And we know that had McR somehow become a serious contender in 2000 charges like these would have been spread like a virus. Berlet would have dug up a conference which McR attended with a LaRouchite or a conversation he had with a neo-Nazi fifteen years ago. A fight he had with a guy who layed the carpet in his apartment would have been taken as an expression of his contempt for the working class. His failure to appreciate rap music or perhaps his enjoyment of classical music would have been taken as indicative of his deeply rooted elitism or racism. Katha Pollitt would have found some remark he made somewhere to be deeply and offensively sexist etc.
All this is a depressing reminder of those who gleefully (pace NN) imposed a similar purity test on Nader.
You have a lot to be ashamed about.
John =========
DOCUMENT 12. Stannard (Addendum to Halle)
Subject: Re: "the prick McReynolds"-like crabs in a bucket . . .
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:38:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stannard67 at aol.com
john.halle at yale.edu writes:
<< [CLIP] You have a lot to be ashamed about. >>
Amen.
stannard
==========
All posts as of 3:50 pm cdt. Sunday, June 10.